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Post by telmerand on Jun 22, 2017 13:15:28 GMT
I'm not going to make any reports - but this has gotten way off topic. This is not a thread about AS, it's a thread about 2/3's of our beasts being redundant or trash.
Nearly all lists look the same, but I'm not going to go over stuff I've already talked about - just would like to have the thread get back on the rails.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jun 25, 2017 9:14:32 GMT
Posted before in the wrong tread:
Circle beasts only need 2 things: 1) slight points discount 2) some kind of treath extention (fragile and overcosted beasts can't afford be out-treathed all the time)
We have legionesque statlines and they pretend we bite the alpha all the time. Our terrain manipulation is not good enought to overcome our fragility and point cost problems.
I hope SR 2017 is going to change the way people build lists...
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Post by ispyypsi on Jun 25, 2017 13:42:36 GMT
Posted before in the wrong tread: Circle beasts only need 2 things: 1) slight points discount 2) some kind of treath extention (fragile and overcosted beasts can't afford be out-treathed all the time) We have legionesque statlines and they pretend we bite the alpha all the time. Our terrain manipulation is not good enought to overcome our fragility and point cost problems. I hope SR 2017 is going to change the way people build lists... I think giving us threat extension would make it less fun to play vs that's why we won't get anything. If they gave us more non linear threat entendos (like ambush, forest walk, jump) think it would feel more circle like without creating a power creep of threat ranges.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jun 25, 2017 14:02:51 GMT
We don't shoot, we miss any meningfull treath extender and our terrain manipulation and stelth capabilities are easily negated by pretty much every faction. We are in the desperate need of a good way to dictate the engage rules and put pressure on the opponent.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 25, 2017 14:03:26 GMT
We have two powerfull tools but in a less than optimal manner... Hunter's Mark in faction and Primal. One is highly conditional and not seen as BG support by PP due to the fact that it's not present in every theme like the shifting stones, the other has a HUGE cost that isn't considered by anyone outside a few circle players, even devs say that circle heavies kill anything and are assuming primal when they do.
I think those two abilities keep a lot of warlock options in check.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jun 25, 2017 14:24:07 GMT
Jisidro, output isn't the problem here. We miss the durability to sustain a fair fight, and our ways to dictate the engage are not good as they need to be. To overcome the primal handicap and poor armor/box values we need either: -good infantry (we have good delivery systems/durability but orrible output) -alpha strike capabilities (extender or more reliable "cheating"tools) -ways to mitigate the counterpunch Without those things we are both too passives and not durable enought to sustain a fight against spammy armyes.
Destroy things is not a problem, do that over time is.
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Post by telmerand on Jun 25, 2017 15:12:35 GMT
We have two powerfull tools but in a less than optimal manner... Hunter's Mark in faction and Primal. One is highly conditional and not seen as BG support by PP due to the fact that it's not present in every theme like the shifting stones, the other has a HUGE cost that isn't considered by anyone outside a few circle players, even devs say that circle heavies kill anything and are assuming primal when they do. I think those two abilities keep a lot of warlock options in check. Man, then just get rid of those abilities. I mean look at LoE, they have Blightbringer for +2 Str/+2 Arm, then they have their new caster. Ya so what right? Warspears have PoW 18 spears of a sudden and get to assault with that for another boosted Pow 18 with optimal and unlikely positioning. But then there is Azreal, who ALREADY has MULTIPLE Pow 18 boostable auto fire spears, under such a set up it has boosted Pow 23 spear*s*. So nothing else in the game has that kinda ranged damage. Are they castrated for having such *options* in their faction? I hate that we get screwed just cause Primal exists. I don't like using Primal. But is that our true faction identity past the weak terrain gen and faded to nothing hit and run game? I mean I just look at our goat and look at the Neraph. It's better defensively with 14 Dex and Serpentine, negates the only issue with high Dex. Better Mat (unless you Primal, blehh) Roughly the same damage output with the autohits factored and higher initial mat. But if used on the flank, it shines way brighter than a Gnarlhorn in that it can fly in and then retreat like a Warpwolf Stalker. Hell, it even does the goats job better in that beatback on that speed of beast can open lanes, still kill some shit, then run away too. Way way better than the goats - and LoE complains that it's weak. I mean I bought Skorne and LoE books just to compare - Circle feels like the garbage faction. Trolls might be a bit pillowfisted like us, but they have +3 Str animus and better ranged attacks (outside the Wyrd). We don't have all these Arm/Str buffs like LoE and Trolls and Skorne. Our defensive game is non-existant, but they make druids crap/give everything pathfinder, give us a weak range game, take away out hit and run capability. I mean *all* we do is alpha strike with primal and sac our dudes - but it's not even a trade up situation. Nerf long leash, no out maneuvering or out flanking the enemy. Everything we had gets taken away and the faction feels hollow.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 25, 2017 15:40:25 GMT
I don't we are bad in the overall. Pow12 wyrds give us a ranged game that we didn't have. We are not the bottom of the pile, at all.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 25, 2017 15:54:51 GMT
I think you've lost the plot a bit, telm.
I've recently moved over to Circle as a vacation from the last 8 months in Legion, and I gotta tell you the first thing I felt was a rush of ABSOLUTE POWER!
Seriously, the difference between Legion and Circle gives you a genuine power rush when fielding the hippies.
Lets quickly disabuse you of a couple of notions:
Warspears:
Base POW 13, Prey to 15, Blightbringer to 17. If you have a caster buff this could go up to 19, if you want to throw all the points at it the blackfrost shard could make it 21 (highly inadvisable btw). They're also collecting dust on the shelf as they cannot play into the shooting meta of MKIII. Similarly, if you want to abuse that blightbringer buff you need to shoot the blighty at the target (and hope to hell he hasn't brought any shield guards. At that point you gotta ask yourself "what the hell have I been doing that I've let him spend 58 points on one charge (67 if the shard is involved) and it's actually effective?".
Azrael:
21 points, POW 17 shots, he does not benefit from the blightbringer, only 1 melee attack. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing piece, but lets not pretend he's ending the world. For reference, Dynamo shoots harder than him at 3 points less (although if you made the argument that Dynamo was absurd, I wouldn't fight you on that). For another reference a Dire troll bomber throws two POW 16s, at a substantially discounted cost.
As for Circle, we have the most reliable anti-shooting tech in the game (sentry stones), we shoot better than Legion outside very specific Niche lists (Lyly2, I'm looking at you), we have the best cheapie beasts in the game (Scarsfell griffons are still bonkers good, and who cares about frenzying a primalled 8-point light?).
Do we have areas I wish were improved? Absolutely. Druids need a rework, wolds in general (except for Wyrds) need help, Argii do... what exactly? And the male Tharn could all use some TLC. Despite this, Circle really is sitting in a very good place competitively.
-und_ed
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Post by telmerand on Jun 25, 2017 17:53:17 GMT
I think you've lost the plot a bit, telm. Do we have areas I wish were improved? Absolutely. Druids need a rework, wolds in general (except for Wyrds) need help, Argii do... what exactly? And the male Tharn could all use some TLC. Despite this, Circle really is sitting in a very good place competitively. -und_ed I think you missed the point, cause I said we have a few models that are totally A+ class. Stalkers, purebloods, sentry stones and a large number of the locks like Worm. I'm the OP and I said that outside about 10-15% of the faction, it's garbage. I stand by that. I don't even discount that a lotta stuff in LoE sucks, but that stuff people says sucks? Better than what Circle gets. I mean look at those Warspears compared to the Blood Pack, holy shit.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 25, 2017 18:19:04 GMT
Warspears vs blood pack seems a pointless comparison, since neither one are worth putting on the table.
As for the good stuff, Circle beats Legion hands down on the good stuff.
-und_ed
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Post by telmerand on Jun 25, 2017 19:14:08 GMT
Warspears vs blood pack seems a pointless comparison, since neither one are worth putting on the table. As for the good stuff, Circle beats Legion hands down on the good stuff. -und_ed I mean back when I played Eldar - I'd really rather be able to play Warp Spiders and Dire Scorpions - rather than Dark Reapers and banshees all day long when you're not just told to do all skimmers all the time. If stuff is broken and we have CID - stop being fine with the trash. I don't want to play the same 10 pieces all day. I wanna play what I like thematically and artistically.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 25, 2017 19:34:00 GMT
While the 40K references are lost on me, I do agree with the sentiment.
I'd love to put blood pack on the table, or druids, or the other 2 griffons. Where I was disagreeing with you is that Legion's playable model pool is even narrower - just as few beasts, and fewer infantry worth using.
-und_ed
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jun 25, 2017 20:36:23 GMT
Legions viable models are fewer, but legion can set up the engage rules. This is the reason why legion is doing well and circle is like a punching bag. I played the italian master few weeks ago and lagion was one of the most rapresented faction with cygnar, retry and cryx.
The good players are quitting Orboros for reasons...
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jun 26, 2017 8:04:37 GMT
Did anybody ever try a bunch of cheap Satyrs with Kaya 3? A bit late to the party but, yes, one of our local players did try this. He found that it works but is much less effective than, say, Amon Dervish spam. You then add the problem that accurate ranged lists chew through Circle 'beasts fairly easily and the list ends up with too many bad matchups to be ideal, so it went out of his pairing (and then he switched factions for a while). I agree that the same 'beasts get taken over and over again and only a few Warlocks (Baldur2, Una2, Kaya3) seem to go for the niche builds. I'm not sure if this is because the 'beasts are bad/overcosted or simply because Circle gets locked into a few repetitive lists due to what everyone else is playing (case in point: I'm currently playing Retribution and Minions because I don't feel the Circle lists I'd like to take handle the combination of incredibly hard-hitting Cygnar shooting and 'jack spam which seems to be all I face locally. I hope Cryx bends the meta for Circle but I don't think SR2017 alone will be enough).
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