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Post by streetpizza on Jun 15, 2017 14:20:31 GMT
In my readings I see a lot of talk about Jaws of the Wolf and Winterguard Command but very little about legion of steel. Now I'm not a Khador player but I do dabble in list building for all factions in War Room and I came up with this:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Legion of Steel
(Irusk 1) Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] - War Dog [3] Iron Fang Kovnik [0(4)] Iron Fang Kovnik [0(4)] Uhlan Kovnik Markov [7] Great Bears of the Gallowswood [9] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [0(4)] Iron Fang Uhlans (max) [20] Iron Fang Uhlans (max) [20]
To my eyes this looks like a nightmare to play against so I'm wondering from an outsiders perspective, why don't we see more Legion of Steel?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 14:32:46 GMT
Its kinda one note. Oh its great for sure, but Iron Fangs are kinda one note. No Magical weapon, no tricks against tricks. Its sorta "Die or be killed"
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Post by Netherby on Jun 15, 2017 14:54:35 GMT
I think Leg-o-S is decent. It's probably more that these are lists we already ran to death in Mk2 and most of us are sick of pikemen
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Post by zerfius on Jun 15, 2017 15:10:18 GMT
I am glad you posted this. I have been wanting to build a LegoS list but have not had a chance to yet. For me, especially since I only have on Kovnik and one Uhlans unit, I was thinking of popping in a unit of Black Dragons. I also built it with Strakhov1 and Torch, just to see how it played.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 15, 2017 16:30:41 GMT
It is a nightmare to deal with and it's as good as it sounds aside from some massed infantry counters. I'm guessing not everyone had models readily available. How many people played Markov previously, huh?
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Post by zerosequence on Jun 15, 2017 16:32:23 GMT
It's solid, I've run it with multiple casters, but it is very one dimensional.
THere is essentially no shooting, it is very vulnerable to anything ignores tough or just does mass damage, very vulnerable to hazards like multiple scather templates, and very vulnerable to mass Terrain effects like Baldur1 feat, etc.
Not saying it doesn't work, just that it's a good second list, not a take all comers.
The theme really needs some new IF solos, a shooting unit, and Uhlans need a CID.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 15, 2017 16:57:15 GMT
I run Black Dragons, red dragons, and Max Uhlans. For Jacks it is a Destroyer and a Maurader. Bears and Markov. 2 Fangniks. With Strak2 who I think does it the best since he can buff up the ARM to very high levels and offers a great damage buff with Last Stand that really hurts things.
As others have pointed out, it has a nice bimodal distribution. It can absolutely wreck face against a LOT of jack/Beast spam. I mean destroys them to the point of feeling unfair. But it has been dropped into a sniper corp list I have with Butcher 3. I simply wiped it off the table, shooting out the pikes and Swifthuntering out of engage range over and over again. When he ran things to engage Butcher 3 pulled them off and I kept doing it again over and over. Add in Maddy and it made for a difficult game for my opponent. I also played it into a Rebuke caster which created problems when I couldn't give the sheild wall order.
That said, Legion paired with Jack spam CAN offer up some real problems. There remain some key holes (neither great into Ghost fleet, for example if you can't keep your caster safe) but overall I think it has a lot of game.
And I highly dispute it "doesn't ask questions". Paired with Strak2 the biggest one it offers up is how are you going to damage those ARM ridiculous fangs because _IF_ you send something in like a Jack that can get the power up you are taking counter charges from precision striking weaponmasters/flankers that can right way damage your cortex and leave you one very very very sad puppy.....or Markov counter charging, rolling 3 dice, and having a decent shot at Knocking you down. Opponents HAVE to plan for that - and that question right there means why it is very possible to run the table with the legion list into the right pairings.
Also IR is great because it stops pushes....so you CAN deliver that Maurader, for example, right into the face of the Convergence Collasol who would otherwise be towing your jack into its doom.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 15, 2017 17:10:34 GMT
So the summary then is it has play but you need a solid second list to shore up the weaknesses and it leaves you in list chicken competitively. Not sure turning off tough neuters the list though. That just hampers one aspect of it but you still have to chew through a minimum of arm 18 to do work here.
I just have trouble picturing a list that has enough high quality shots to deal with that much high arm and multiwound stuff while also being able to circumvent the pathfinder issue presented by Irusk1. Not only that but when you do get there you're faced with a counter charging boosted attack roll solo with tactician and crit knockdown so he can come from behind the main line. 5 other counter charging weapon masters (flank) for good measure.
Heavy shooting lists may be enough to keep Irusk honest but that's a lot of LOS blocking to chew through to get to him. Just working 100% on theory here but some matchups to avoid are probably:
- Cyriss theme force with servitors, AOEs from the destroyers may tag the eliminators but the TEPs will probably have a field day with the rest of the list. - Tannith because circle don't care about pathfinder (mostly) and affliction bypasses the main thrust of this list - Kaelyss stops just about everything this list wants to do in its tracks, but the uhlans out threat the sentinels possibly forcing a defensive feat - Cygnar in general would be a bad match - Cryx Denny1 Ghost Fleet - Rebuke does sound horrible (Stryker2, Kreuger2)
Thing is none of the above ignore everything the list has going on. So you have some counter play. That is any of them except Ghost Fleet ... because Ghost Fleet, but Khador needs a dedicated drop there anyway.
Keep the feedback coming. I'll probably be helping out a new Khador player soon so it'd be nice to know where I'm wrong on this stuff.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 15, 2017 18:09:27 GMT
Streetpizza
The butcher 3 list I dropped into it did fine. It has 4 widowmakers, 1 widowmaker Marksman, Kell and then a unit of eliminators. That is up to 11 autowound attacks each turn. 5 of those models can swifthunter and I have a way (impending doom) of pulling them off. So when I play LoS I don't drop it into the sniper boat in the mirror match up.
I think Cygnar is now a question mark. The Sadamore and Lance nerfs now give pause about the electro leap issues. It is worth testing to see how it goes post CID implementation. I also want to fully explore how it does into Haley2 -- it seems like it could work if only because high arm does create problems for most of the way that Cygnar looks to clear an extreme number of models and Quicken on the Uhlans creates some issues for her in respect to how far forward she would have to play to catch them in the feat. As with H2 - so much of it depends upon how the game plays out rather than her uber abilities in theory craft warmachine.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 15, 2017 18:57:57 GMT
That butcher list is brutal but how often do we see B3 in lists pairs now? I imagine it might tick upward with SR2017 but perusing the lists on conflict chamber it seems like a safe dodge in the mirror. Also lucky for the guy i'm helping he's the only Khador player in the meta Your point is well taken though. I see what you're saying about Cygnar but you're just discussing Storm Division which seems a bit dated now. Caine3 and chargers is the new hotness and that's putting 20x boosted pow 15's down range on feat turn + Caine's unit. You can get similar out put from a Sloan or Haley list or use Siege to give a trencher list armor piercing for a turn. I also don't see a problem with lances falling out of favor as the new storm strider rules and a bevy of fireflies are there to pick up the slack under Nemo3. So I guess I'm saying Cygnar will still shoot this off the table with little difficulty. The steel legion likely give any other faction's shooting list fits though.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 15, 2017 19:36:03 GMT
I would LOVE to see that Caine list. Chargers Range 12. So ABSOLUTELY in range of the IF on the charge with quicken. To get the positioning a far number of them have to be there.
Black Dragons. SW+Minifeat+IR+Feat= ARM 26. That means Dice minus 11. Great. Less than 50% chance to kill the dragon AND I get to tough. Uhlans out threat the Chargers by 1 inch BEFORE quicken. JUST with feat (and B2B) we are looking at Dice minus 10 on the damage - so needs a 15 on three dice to kill AND tough roll. The chargers are also vulnerable to just a mass push of Quickened Red Fangs Running 16 inches up and mini feating for the SW ARM 18.
Finally - keep in mind Strak2 has the right tools to make this work. He can do what he needs to and then either repo back 5 inches or go stealth and force the dropping of Mage sight in a VERY dangerous position.....while Strak during feat is on ARM 18 (so even still ARM 16 under Calamity).
And once I weather out his feat I go wreck EVERYTHING - in many cases not even having to cast last stand.
Please let me see that Caine3 list.
Butcher 3 is undervalued. I think much of his lack of presence in the national meta is that people played him SO MUCH that they are tired of him - plus the various nerfs to his threat range has meant he can not board bully as much as he used to. But I see possibilities in SR2017 - from more fun for units to scoring pace that will be quicker. Butcher is fully able to cover the rectangles. He pairs well with either Strak2 or, more I think, with Hark depending on the build.
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Post by rainless on Jun 15, 2017 21:05:58 GMT
Z1 can give some needed cover to get troops into melee at full units.... at the same time a lot of stuff can see through clouds...
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Post by zerosequence on Jun 15, 2017 21:39:15 GMT
It's actually really good with Z1 for the cloud wall. I ran it a few times and didn't lose a game, but they were all close because Z1 lacks endgame.
Strak2 runs it like a boss and his unit provides a decent shooting game.
Irusk2 also runs it like a boss as well since he can give one turn of glorious pathfinder and charging through forests with battle list, then camp in a self made crater.
But they all suffer from the same weaknesses except Z1, though eve she still suffers against legion. It's hard to deny LoS to 2 deathstalkers and the ravagores ignore the clouds.
ARM18 is good, really good, except when it's not. Snipers ignore it and lots of jack shooting is pow14 and up so kills easily. It's just rps right now, but it's a helluva rock into scissors.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 15, 2017 22:33:22 GMT
Things to avoid: acid sprays/blasts, massed anatomical precision or puncture, Haley 2 feat. If they don't have those you can play the list safely, you won't be disadvantaged.
Everything else you can at least find a caster that helps countering it or take specific jacks. Shooting\leaps - arm\tough skew or Z1 clouds or shield guard/clam jacks, long threat melee - casters that give longer threat or clams again, harmful upkeeps (Rebuke, etc.) - Z1 or Butcher+Ruin. There's a bunch of casters that cover 2 out of 3 of those things.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 16, 2017 7:32:24 GMT
I think to sum up the 2 essential problems of LoS in general are: 1. All or nothing: The matchups are pretty much win or loose, so very extreme 2. Pairing! Because of the bevore mentioned problem and the fact that pre GF our best lists were Hark and Vlad1 the Pairing just didn't add up. Pairing those list with most of the LoS list left a lot of gaps in your pairing (only exception maybe Z1). And since the List is fairly strict in List Building there isn't much room to compensate.
That said with the rise of GF I am currently thinking about including a LoS list in my pairing togehter with S1 as a GF answer. I feel like these Lists synergize well.
The only thing I am not sure about is wether i want to play Strakov2 or Irusk1. Yes 1, I feel he has a great toolbox to really crank up the dmg, and also brings Pathfinder, Boardcontroll etc. he just seems to really like the list. And Jacks with superiority can easily keep up with LoS.
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