benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Jun 14, 2017 4:27:54 GMT
Anyway, my question is: not having arc nodes is a pretty big disadvantage, what does Khador get in return?
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Post by tapecrawler on Jun 14, 2017 4:33:18 GMT
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Post by borderprince on Jun 14, 2017 4:34:18 GMT
As noted, the background is well-established that Khador cannot build/maintain arc nodes (I suspect this really means, does not consider them cost-effective).
In terms of game mechanics, there are some very nasty spells in Khador which would be challenging to face with an easily accessible arc node. That's also true of Cryx, but spell-slinging and debuffing is part of their overall faction design. For Khador, I think offensive spells are more meant as occasional pieces, rather than core game plan.
But I think my bigger concern would be that arc nodes could give a very large effective increase in the range of buff spells. Casters could be well away from units they needed to buff, reducing some of the difficult choices in caster positioning. I think this is more significant, because without a new jack chassis, an arc node would still only be on a SPD 4 model, so hardly running forward into the enemy to deliver an early blow from spells. But keeping an arc node jack within the main body of the army, enabling your caster to be on one side of the field, arcing buff spells to the other would make things much simpler for Khadoran players.
If an arc node were to be included, probably the easiest balance restriction at present would be to put it on a character jack. For most casters, that would then force them to choose between a node and theme benefits, which is not an easy choice in many cases.
But the obvious character for such a jack would be Zerkova (who might be able to achieve an arc node effect via mystical, rather than mechanikal, means). But she has less need of one, making it a questionable benefit on her character jack. I wonder whether channeller as the bond effect might work? It would save Z1 from needing to use the Rod of Whispers successfully (not entirely reliable) and Z2 could have 2 nodes on the field or simply not need to cast/upkeep Telgesh Mark.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 14, 2017 4:47:53 GMT
Anyway, my question is: not having arc nodes is a pretty big disadvantage, what does Khador get in return? I don't agree with that. It's only a big disadvantage if Khadoran casters are intended to be casting their offensive spells frequently. I don't think that is the case, unlike some factions. Ignoring the Zerkovas, Sorscha1 might be the exception, but she is meant to be a high risk/reward caster, where casting Wind Rush is near-mandatory to keep her safe when using her spells. Arc nodes reduce the risk, but maintain the reward. An arc node would, at least, require rethinking Sorscha's jack points, and possibly her access to one of Tempest and/or Freezing Grip. In return for no arc nodes, we get warriors and jacks which can often do their jobs without the need for debuffs (accuracy or power) or particular spell effects being applied to enemy models. Most Khadoran casters are meant to support their army. Those that are more capable of doing work themselves do so through their stats and abilities (Butchers, Karchev) rather than offensive spells. Khadoran casters are generally soldiers who happen to be mages, rather than (to take the Rahn example from the start of the thread) a mage who happens to be a soldier.
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Post by Narvt86 on Jun 14, 2017 6:02:55 GMT
I believe a big issue is that not everything can shake it, namely units and solos. That said, a character jack for Zerkova with an arc node would be pretty sweet.
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Post by Narvt86 on Jun 14, 2017 6:06:36 GMT
I believe a big issue is that not everything can shake it, namely units and solos. That said, a character jack for Zerkova with an arc node would be pretty sweet. Just give her ruin and put a another bond for her. Il would be Nice and they fit well together
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Post by gobber on Jun 14, 2017 6:23:49 GMT
Just give her ruin and put a another bond for her. Il would be Nice and they fit well together Snowball in hell, but there's some fluff precedent for this if butcher died or something. She controlled Ruin en route to hand it over to butcher, and was not happy about it "'Why not claim it for yourself?' She gave him a tight smile. 'Orders are Orders'" "It was clear she desired the machine. She hoped to see him perish so she could reclaim it. He intended to see her disappointed, to master this machine"
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Post by auraco on Jun 14, 2017 10:39:53 GMT
No, and it's not a big deal, same reason why we will probably never see a light jack outside of Scrapjack, faction identity.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 14, 2017 14:27:25 GMT
Anyway, my question is: not having arc nodes is a pretty big disadvantage, what does Khador get in return? Technically on average our casters are more survivable than those in factions with arcnodes.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 14:34:59 GMT
Its a faction disadvantage for having the awesome jacks we do and pretty great everything else.
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Post by rainless on Jun 14, 2017 14:40:06 GMT
Yea my understanding of the fluff is Khador simply does not have resources to make light jacks or arc nodes but, why would we never salvage the parts from the wars that Khador has been in?
OW salvaged hers to make Scrappy.... I do not understand why the rest of Khador would not do the same? I do not think Khador would have an abundance of them... but I can not see how Khador would not Salvage them up...
Scourge CST 4 / RNG 8 / AoE 3 / POW 13
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Jun 14, 2017 15:19:04 GMT
Yea my understanding of the fluff is Khador simply does not have resources to make light jacks or arc nodes but, why would we never salvage the parts from the wars that Khador has been in? OW salvaged hers to make Scrappy.... I do not understand why the rest of Khador would not do the same? I do not think Khador would have an abundance of them... but I can not see how Khador would not Salvage them up... Scourge CST 4 / RNG 8 / AoE 3 / POW 13 If it's not an AXE what's the point of salvaging it? Besides it would be from an inferior nation and why would we want inferior stuff??
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 14, 2017 15:53:54 GMT
I would rather she get her own! I love ruin, but I think I'd prefer to see a new jack for her.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 14, 2017 17:17:18 GMT
Yea my understanding of the fluff is Khador simply does not have resources to make light jacks or arc nodes but, why would we never salvage the parts from the wars that Khador has been in? OW salvaged hers to make Scrappy.... I do not understand why the rest of Khador would not do the same? Because OW is special. Her arc node might not be purely mechanikal. We know she had connections with the Circle, who can channel without nodes. She may have incorporated that knowledge into the 'node' on Scrapjack. The only character we know who has successfully salvaged arc nodes is Magnus, who was able to make arc nodes from scrap/spares when in exile. And he is (or used to be) protrayed as something of a mechanikal genius in the fluff. Not an original inventor like Nemo, but an excellent mechanik/innovator. In the story about the Sharde Invasions, we learn that even when a Cygnaran caster, Magnus made a new mechanikal weapon for his favourite Charger and scavenged new weaponry for his Defender. That is not typical, even for a warcaster. As for salvaging generally: (i) Arc nodes are described as delicate tech. There might not be enough good pieces to salvage after the jack they are mounted on is damaged. Their delicacy might also make them less reliable (again, story about the Scharde invasions suggests this was an issue with the precursor to the arc node) and the Khadoran military does value reliability, perhaps more so than some other factions; (ii) Khador might not have mechaniks in the field who can salvage/use arc node parts. Arc nodes are delicate and difficult. Cygnar uses gobber mechaniks with small and dexterous fingers. Khadoran mechaniks have steam-powered fists and large wrenches; (iii) Salvaging doesn't give a reliable supply. It's no good developing/adopting military tech which isn't reliably available because you can't rely on having it when you really need it. If your tactical doctrines and training call for the use of tech you don't have, you've made your life more difficult. This may be more of an issue for Khador as a faction which has mostly been expansionary - expansion places pressure on supply lines that defending existing territory might not; (iv) Khador may have decided that arc nodes don't fit tactically even if available, given the decision to focus production solely on heavy warjacks. Most arc nodes are on light jacks due to their mobility. Khadoran tactics at present do not think light jacks are required.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 14, 2017 17:38:21 GMT
Speaking of Old Witch (the original), even though she comes with an arc-node as standard, a complaint I have heard about her is that she doesn't really have any good offensive spells to arc anyway. This would seem to support the idea that PP aren't really big on the idea of Khadoran casters making heavy use of offensive spells.
Take Harkevich: loads of arc nodes, never actually arcs through them.
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