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Post by GumbaFish on Jun 5, 2017 13:22:12 GMT
Hey all, so I am looking for some advice. I have always struggled against Cygnar because they ask a lot of tough questions and I am looking for general advice on how others deal with Cygnar. This could include caster choice, list selection, specific strategies etc... I am most confused on how to handle a Haley 1 / Haley 2 pairing.
Locally one of the guys has been playing a Haley 1 list in Sons of the Tempest with a ton of gun mages which means that I don't think my Cygnar answer can be something like jack heavy Butcher 3. I tried it out and my jacks got pushed around and manipulated so much that I basically couldn't do anything with them. Also, given the nature of Haley 2's feat I felt I should have a strong ranged presence for my Cygnar drop. This has left me with two possible options: 1.) Vlad 1 with 5 jacks and a bunch of WGRC and rockets or 2.) Sorscha 1 with WGRC and various snipers etc..
If people have experience with either of these casters into Cygnar, or just general strategies it would be of great use. For example, I played a game with Vlad 1 last night against Haley 2. I think that is a very close matchup but there are some key points in the matchup I think I could use some help with. One critical one is how best to apply his feat. Is it best to use it to run and jam so that way when she feats you have partially negated it because you can still attack back? Would you go first or second? What is the primary target you want to get rid of, Thorn? I've probably rambled a bit by now so I'll leave it open to advice and follow up from there.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 5, 2017 13:24:06 GMT
I think a much healthier is to pick the caster YOU want to play, and LEARN around him/her/it instead of yadda yadda.
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Post by GumbaFish on Jun 5, 2017 13:35:23 GMT
Well I guess I should add that I have narrowed it down to Vlad 1 or Sorscha 1 because I am interested in both of them but have only played a single game with Vlad 1. I've only won a single game against Cygnar this edition and that was with Butcher 3 vs. Haley 2. I have been playing Butcher 1 since the new edition and wanted to change casters and try some new things. I've settled on playing Strakhov 1 in Jaws as my other list but don't fancy it into this particular set of casters I think. Hence, why I am looking for advice because Cygnar is a puzzle I've never been able to solve.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 5, 2017 13:42:53 GMT
Well here is what I know: MOW Shocktroopers shut down electroleaps hard. Especially with Iron Flesh. I use them as a wall to shield whatever else behind them.
Difficult terrain tends to hurt Cygnar pretty hard....Thats about it. I have never played against Haley 2, but from the sound of it shes awful.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 5, 2017 15:26:29 GMT
We know a bit about the Haley1 list, any info on the Haley2 one? She can be built in lots of different ways.
If I were to choose between Vlad1 and Sorscha1 against Haleys1 and 2, I think I would choose Vlad1.
My experience is that Sorscha1's feat tends to be reactive to Haley2's as Haley2 has the larger control area. Haley2 feats, Sorscha then feats to try and stop Cygnar capitalising on the lost turn.
By contrast, Vlad1 feat can keep Haley2 more on her back foot. There are two possibilities. The first is that Vlad1 keeps jacks back out of her control area (and so her feat) to missile forwards on feat turn - unlikely to be an assassination vector, but it keeps you with some game on her feat turn. The Haley2 player can address that by Haley2 coming further forward, but then she risks ranged attacks from other models who sacrifice movement. The second is using his feat to get jacks into melee range of Cygnar models before Haley2 feats. Her feat might slow them down/reduce damage, but you've got a more favourable board state. How to use Vlad's feat probably depends on the opposing list composition and board state (better players, please tell me there's a great golden rule here!) - against a jack heavy list the alpha is probably a good idea, but maybe less so if her list is more infantry based. But at least you have some options.
Against Haley1, Vlad's feat also lets jacks threaten charges from outside the Temporal Barrier bubble.
The difficulty for the ranged component is that Cygnar excel at cutting through lightly armored infantry like WGRC or snipers and can reach out and touch them quite effectively. Sorcha1 gives a bit of protection by upping DEF via concealment. Vlad1's Windwall doesn't help against Sons of the Tempest, but can assist against the eletro-leaping shots. No protection against Chain Lightning though.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 5, 2017 16:43:11 GMT
B3 is the best bet among jack casters since Energizer counters all their control quite well. The idea there is to sacrifice your jacks until you get to remove their heavy hitters, B3 can feat to do it himself very often. After that he's free to do whatever since their popular casters aren't good at 1v1'ing him. Use Devastators to counter pushes if you're playing B3. Devastators are good against them in general since they lack things that can oneround them without opening. Yes, H2 can open them, but it severely drains her focus to do so meaning less control in other places.
If you play infantry just shoot them from as far away as you can. Their anti-infantry guns with leaps are all short ranged. Melee infantry will have a hard time, something like Stormwall/Stormclad + H2 feat will kill so much it's not funny.
The priority target for jacks charges should be Stormwall if it's present because it doesn't die to rocket shooting. Meanwhile shooting should try to kill their arcnode and lights, preferably after knocking them down with something to negate the def.
Windwall on V1 can save you a lot of damage on your jacks from shooting or save you from assassination. While Cygnar is THE shooting faction, they don't usually bring many magical arm-cracking guns.
In sr 2016 always pick going first, especially if you're in wg theme. In sr 2017 I don't know yet, but going first is never a bad thing judging by 2016.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 5, 2017 17:38:53 GMT
Ah Swans. What fun.......
First - it is my experience that, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, player skill matters more in the Cygnar vs. Khador match ups than in many of the other dyads. I have come to view Gonzo as very wise in point out that I don't really struggle with Cygnar - I struggle with 2 very good Cygnar players (both did very well in KC Masters for benchmarking). Indeed, lost the other day a new and exciting way to a TK Haley 2 assissination on Hark. But I digress.....
Second - as above the model that GENERALLY gives Cyngar the greatest challenge and forces the most counter play are the Man of War Shocktroopers. Now not a hard counter. They can build armor cracking fine (see Strker 3) but it GENERALLY forces Swans to expand outside of the Haleys. The biggest reason is that a major force multiplier - electroleaps - just isn't that relevant when there are shocks on the table.
Third - a model that swans almost universally hate seeing is Orin Midwinter. I haven't been playing my Butcher 3 Voltron list for a few months but that remains a very viable option.
Fourth - if Gun Mages moving your stuff is creating problems than you can consider Clams. Slams still matter but those ATGMs can't push you around anymore. Ditto for different reasons Conquest
Fifth - to Borderprinces point - you want to look hard at the Cygnar armor cracking answers with Haley2 and really consider with Vlad1 simply RUNNING jacks a full 16 inches to engage. Now you have to worry about TK'ing so look for additional ways to buff your defense above and beyond engaging. So engage while on a hill....or over a wall...or in a forest. Forcing her to use the Squire reroll or boost can help here.
Sixth - even with CRA'ing ATGM you should be OK. Temp Barrier sucks. Just keep plodding forward. Best is if you can shoot (destroyers/behemoth/Conquest) at Haley. TB costs 4 points so it can be a trap if used too frequently.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 5, 2017 17:41:09 GMT
What about a bunch of Man o Wars? Those seem to not really care about lightning and whatnot.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 5, 2017 18:00:38 GMT
What about a bunch of Man o Wars? Those seem to not really care about lightning and whatnot. Absolutely. You just need to have a strategy for getting them all the way up the board - potentially under Temporal Barrier (or Time Bomb or Haley2 Time Walk). _IF_ you can do that without losing on scenario (and it isn't THAT hard but just something you need to know about/have a plan) than Shocks can work great. Options include Vlad 3 (Dash), Kozlov (Tac Surprmacy), Irusk 1 (tac Suprmacy on a stick) and Strakov2 (Quicken). I am NOT sure whether Vlad1 or Sorscha1 can get them up the field fast enough. Maybe. Would need to know what else is in the lists and whether ARM 17/8 wounds is or is not at risk to the shooting.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 5, 2017 18:15:34 GMT
Also difficult terrain. If you're gonna go slow, then make Cygnar go EVEN SLOWER.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 5, 2017 18:32:13 GMT
I was thinking Kozlov or Butcher 1, actually. Both up the armour to make it absurd, Kozlov ups the speed. And while B1 doesn't up the speed, he certainly makes them hurt when they get there.
I think both Vlad and Sorscha could be good with them, though. Vlad makes them super accurate and can send jacks up to contest, and Sorscha can get them an extra turn by freezing everything.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 5, 2017 18:38:58 GMT
How to play against Haley2 should probably be a sticky thread. It's one of the most asked things.
I will share with you the number one rule of playing against Haley2: You CANNOT beat her at list creation. She has an answer for everything you can put in your list.
So how do you play against her? You take pretty much any decently competitive list and beat her using the table. This means you use terrain and model positioning against her.
What do you do about her feat? It depends a bit on your list, but you have two options. Either you position such that you can get some work done under her feat (be it shooting, movement shenanigans or simply managing to engage stuff that can't 1 round you before she feats). Or you position such that you mitigate your losses enough to still be in the game after the feat. In practice it's usually a mixture of both options.
Haley is very easy to assassinate. Players that feel like they are winning will often advance their casters up for no good reason. Always look for opportunities to just kill her.
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Post by warriorofiron on Jun 5, 2017 23:24:48 GMT
I really enjoy vlad 2 into cygnar as he is a very tool box caster able to cover many areas and has a good way of delivering man of wars, and has a good range presence as well.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 5, 2017 23:44:48 GMT
I really enjoy vlad 2 into cygnar as he is a very tool box caster able to cover many areas and has a good way of delivering man of wars, and has a good range presence as well. I need to really start using him. What is the list that you like? I would think a good quality jack, something like the WGIRC or ponies for hand of fate and then a very hard hitter (or three) for feat.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 6, 2017 11:49:01 GMT
As other people note, if you're willing to go outside Vlad1/Sorscha1, there are other good options. And MoW are definitely a good call against Cygnar, if you can deliver them. All those extra attacks from Haley1's feat (and the equivalent from losing a turn thanks to Haley2) are much less impressive if the attacks don't do more than scratch the paint.
Irusk1 brings a speed buff and rough terrain, which might work well. Kozlov has the speed buff and Chosen Ground does at least protect jacks from knockdown, if not from being pushed. I've enjoyed Kozlov with MoW Shocktroopers, Uhlans and jacks - it's all immune to knockdown effects, which is great.
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