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Post by neutralyze on Jun 3, 2017 14:05:05 GMT
soothing song basically doesn't exist on her card. I'm amazed by this statement. I cast soothing song almost every turn except feat turn. maybe I wouldn't need to if I brought shepherds or whatever but I rarely take fury management with her because of Soothing Song. Anyway. This is my current list with Lylyth2. I'm usually playing it into Cephalyx dudespam or hordes. The raptors are awesome especially if I can get a pin cushion out on a good target. For the ADR I'm looking at Annyssa, a Grot assassin, a unit of strider scouts and an angelius. I'm also tossing around an Oracles build, see below the Ravens list. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0laBbvbfbfbfaObdbdaYaYbiLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Ravens of War (Lylyth 2) Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight [+28] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Seraph [14] Strider Deathstalker [0(4)] Strider Deathstalker [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Grotesque Raiders (max) [12] conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0taBbvbfbfboboaOaNaNbubbbbbebeLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation (Lylyth 2) Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight [+28] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Ravagore [19] - Ravagore [19] - Seraph [14] - Teraph [10] - Teraph [10] - Succubus [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [0(1)] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Both the feat turn and if you want to pincushion big targets requires her to go first to maximize your damage output. Yes, if your stuff doesn't frenzy you can soothing song fury off to give them more to work with. You're still taking the initial frenzy check which isn't optimal or working in your favor.
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Post by zerohour on Jun 3, 2017 17:30:03 GMT
One thing that is definitely worth mentioning is that azraels cait chance is greatly benefitted by her. Against a target he hits on a 4 he has a ~90% chance for at least 1 crit on feat turn. This can make for some very reliable assassination runs. The bolt thrower also ends up with pretty good odds of a crit for the knockdown. Azrael is a great piece with her, but I could see wanting to side him out in the more infantry heavy natchups, so I think he is a great choice for the 142 or so points
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Post by maximumhippo on Jun 8, 2017 7:41:10 GMT
Both the feat turn and if you want to pincushion big targets requires her to go first to maximize your damage output. Yes, if your stuff doesn't frenzy you can soothing song fury off to give them more to work with. You're still taking the initial frenzy check which isn't optimal or working in your favor. I realize this, and I try to play around it. In my experience I have a Boltthrower, the seraph, and the naga do their things first, then Lylyth goes puts out Pincushion and then the rest of the stuff goes. The raptors often get more value from Pincushion than the battlegroup would anyway. and the flare from the Seraph is often the difference between hitting or missing the pincushion. Feat turn is the last turn on 90% of my games with her anyway so it's not really an issue if things are going to frenzy or not.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 8, 2017 12:53:48 GMT
Both the feat turn and if you want to pincushion big targets requires her to go first to maximize your damage output. Yes, if your stuff doesn't frenzy you can soothing song fury off to give them more to work with. You're still taking the initial frenzy check which isn't optimal or working in your favor. I realize this, and I try to play around it. In my experience I have a Boltthrower, the seraph, and the naga do their things first, then Lylyth goes puts out Pincushion and then the rest of the stuff goes. The raptors often get more value from Pincushion than the battlegroup would anyway. and the flare from the Seraph is often the difference between hitting or missing the pincushion. Feat turn is the last turn on 90% of my games with her anyway so it's not really an issue if things are going to frenzy or not. I'm actually thinking of playing similarly. Having the lights go first and then activating Lylyth to pincushion something (that was hopefully knocked down or shadow bound. Why can't she use her Rat to cast spells anymore? Wasn't that an ability one of them had in MKII) and then cast soothing song. Then let bigger guns really put out the damage. Has anyone played it with Anyssa? I love the model and want to get her to be a part of the fun. But keeping her within 10 of Lylyth would hamstring her so much. So I think I'd just have to forgo the extra shot and just use her as flanking pressure. Though if I can get pincushion and prey on a (living) caster...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 12, 2017 13:46:46 GMT
So I did play Lylyth 2 with Azrael, 2 bolt throwers, naga, Zuriel, full Archers + UA, 2 shepherds, 2 spell martyrs, 2 deathstalkers.
I think my opponent understood what Lylyth 2 was meant to do and didn't specifically tech against it, but dropped a very powerful caster against it. Ossrum.
With his caster having an armor AND speed buff feat guns were going to get shut down quick. Going second I was able to walk up far enough to get pin cushion on a jack turn one and remove it. Aside from that and deathstalkers sniped infantry, I killed nothing else that game. Now that's not to say it was a failure. Turn 2 Zuriel charged another heavy and combo stuck a cortex out no problem. The problem was then that jack walked around my reach and a basher slammed Zuriel 8"... then another basher slammed Zuriel over a ball of archers. I always knew Zuriel could be a detriment to my army, but I've never had him kill 4 allied infantry models before. End of turn two I had pin cushion on Ossrum from a spell martyr.
Turn 3 I have nothing but Lylyth, 2 deathstalkers, and Azrael. Zuriel was still stainding but mind and spirit out, he had to just walk to engage. I did not know Lug had counter charge but he let me rectify that. I still wasn't able to kill Brun though so it was really not worth the effort. Azrael had to hit Ossrum under his feat and cover. Spiking dice enough on two boosted damage rolls got the "win". But theres no reason I should have won. I didn't out play my opponent. I didn't have perfect placement. It all really just crumbled apart... Not being able to slam his jacks meant I couldn't get any breathing room, though I did boost and get the knockdowns.
Overall I was unbelievably disappointed. I was activating Lylyth last to cast soothing song each turn. But without infantry to shoot she wasn't doing anything "interesting".
When running Ravagores and Teraphs, are you really just looking for the assassination?
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 12, 2017 20:26:53 GMT
No you can play attrition pretty well with the Ravagore and Teraph build. You can nuke Colossals pretty easily if you Pin Cushion them first then Feat and on non-feat turns it's not uncommon to be able to kill a heavy with combined Ravagore and Bolt Thrower shots. Fury management is a serious problem though, you can't fit enough Fury management into the list to stop things from frenzying. The more I play Lylyth2 the less impressed I am with her, I think it's time to go back to Thagrosh1 or Vayl2 for non-ADR pairings.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 13, 2017 13:28:34 GMT
No you can play attrition pretty well with the Ravagore and Teraph build. You can nuke Colossals pretty easily if you Pin Cushion them first then Feat and on non-feat turns it's not uncommon to be able to kill a heavy with combined Ravagore and Bolt Thrower shots. Fury management is a serious problem though, you can't fit enough Fury management into the list to stop things from frenzying. The more I play Lylyth2 the less impressed I am with her, I think it's time to go back to Thagrosh1 or Vayl2 for non-ADR pairings. I've come to a really frustrating opinion on most of our casters. There are very few that are actually focused on doing a job correctly. Thagrosh 1 being the gold standard, he has rules on top of rules to make him work fantastically and have a very determined role for himself and the army. Vayl 2 also has that same laser guided focus. They intend to do a specific job and they have multiple rules to support it. Their feat, spell list, and abilities all synergize to accomplish something significant. [below is a very aggravated opinion] Then we have the scatter brained conglomerates of cow pies like Kallus 1 and 2, Vayl 1, Fyanna 2, Lylyth 1 and 2, Thagrosh 2, Abby 1, and the twins. Now your probably swinging at the keyboard that Fyanna 2 is great. Yes she has a capable list right now because apparently no one wants to use stationary or doppler bark...w/e. Look at her spells and abilities. Which of them actually align with one another? Her feat is a defensive feat, literally and figuratively. So she wants her army to rely on high defense and mobility. Why then is iron flesh there? our high def infantry are absolute paper at Arm 11 to 13, +2 arm isn't going to save them. What other defensive tech does she have? None. No other delivery method outside of feat turn. Overtake, fury, and gallows are offensive spells/traits. Ok, that's fine to have a spread of tools. But why does her damage buff have to DEBUFF the defensive stat her army is intended to rely upon? These things just do not mesh to make an awesome caster. It just so happens she has some individual pieces that have some power to them. Kallus 2 is still the most frustrating thing I've ever seen. We have no reliable or efficient way to apply fire for his feat in a faction full of fire breathing dragons. Zuriel and Azrael are the best options in factions and you can never have them in theme. His spells cost 3 on a fury 6, are absolutely invaluable on a major engagement turn, so you can't use them together without a perfectly safe bunker to hide him in. Field marshal and overrun wants a big battlegroup. His only damage buff is warrior model only though. He has no way of protecting infantry he wants to take for battle lust. His control range "sit here and get burned" spell your opponent has to be within 12" the previous turn, so at that point they are already in charge range of most of our beast so his feat is pointless. So again all very powerful by themselves but nothing synergizes to say "wow, that's really good". So you end up just beating your head against a wall trying to understand how the hell it's supposed to work. Lylyth 2 is starting to show her true colors of fitting in with this crowd. She has powerful pieces in themselves but they don't play together. Mirage makes sense, you want to place out of melee. But 2" isn't far enough to get you out of all engagement ranges. Pin cushion is a great spell for ranged armies. Soothing song is great for a fury 5 caster. But the order of activation headache invalidates one strength or another every time. I was literally raving to my wife how stupid this trend is. Kallus one's feat relies on his army dying, which it will. But his damage buff is for a unit that is intended to die. Because unyielding is not going to save arm 11 or 13. so WHY? (not to mention the 38 points you pay to get some +2s) Vayl 1 wants to get incite up but her feat specifically does not allow her to move away from instant-death-range. and so on. But I'm looking at minnions. Gators specifically. Calaban is an example of perfectly synergistic spells, abilities, and feat. Everything on his card is designed to enable his feat or build upon it. 7 different instances of rules to benefit his "job" (read: feat). Feat wants things to die. 1 - parasite helps kill armor. 2 - bone shaker, for two fury it can kill two infantry generating 2 fury back under feat., 3 - hex blast to remove defensive spells, 4 - Life trader, Calaban can destroy things himself fantastically, 5 - Carnivore makes your infantry better at killing their infantry. Well he needs to cast a bunch of spells under feat. 6 - Gravedoor, enemy infantry now an arc node. 7 - dark ritual makes his spells seriously accurate. He is so well designed to be absolutely monstrous on his feat turn. But even without his feat he is so highly capable, playing him is just pure joy. Nothing in Legion outside of Thagrosh 1 comes close to that feeling of playing a "complete" caster. and by complete I mean not half assed. not hurried out the door. I mean really thought out and completed correctly. /rant
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 13, 2017 22:43:52 GMT
You're not alone on having some of those opinions. Personally I think Fyanna2 works great, she's probably the best Ravens of War caster in the Faction it's just that she happens to be a ton better in Oracles. Iron Flesh is awesome on stuff like Striders or Grotesques who mainly die from blast damage. The +2ARM matters far and away less than blast damage immunity on that spell (for Legion anyway). Fury is incredible on Grots, Raptors and beasts. Yeah there's a bit of anti-synergy with Fury and the Feat but it isn't cripplingly awful. Fyanna is a much better designed caster than Vayl1, Lylyth2, Saeryn1 and Kallus2.
Legion in general suffered a lot in the transition between editions. We had a lot of stuff that was plainly too good in MK2 that was over-nerfed. Saeryn1, Lylyth2 and Ravagores are the big three culprits on that for me. Possibly the Scythean too.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 13, 2017 23:02:59 GMT
You're not alone on having some of those opinions. Personally I think Fyanna2 works great, she's probably the best Ravens of War caster in the Faction it's just that she happens to be a ton better in Oracles. Iron Flesh is awesome on stuff like Striders or Grotesques who mainly die from blast damage. The +2ARM matters far and away less than blast damage immunity on that spell (for Legion anyway). Fury is incredible on Grots, Raptors and beasts. Yeah there's a bit of anti-synergy with Fury and the Feat but it isn't cripplingly awful. Fyanna is a much better designed caster than Vayl1, Lylyth2, Saeryn1 and Kallus2. Legion in general suffered a lot in the transition between editions. We had a lot of stuff that was plainly too good in MK2 that was over-nerfed. Saeryn1, Lylyth2 and Ravagores are the big three culprits on that for me. Possibly the Scythean too. Yes Fyanna works. But not due to clever or intricate design. It's really just a grab bag that happens to not suck as badly as it could have. I don't deny her tool box is capable. it's just clear no real effort or creativity was applied in the making. The biggest problem for me and a lot of my meta right now is We're stuck in a holding pattern. "will this go through CID" "will people complain about blah enough to screw us over more" "will we get a new model that changes everything" and so on. I'm now just waiting for the next pieces of news. waiting for the next glimmer of hope. not really invested in a faction that i have indeed invested in up to this point. It feels like it's all just one more step away, each time and every time. A never ending "wait for x or y. that will fix it" i'm getting off topic...sorry
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 13, 2017 23:56:15 GMT
Yes Fyanna works. But not due to clever or intricate design. It's really just a grab bag that happens to not suck as badly as it could have. I don't deny her tool box is capable. it's just clear no real effort or creativity was applied in the making. The biggest problem for me and a lot of my meta right now is We're stuck in a holding pattern. "will this go through CID" "will people complain about blah enough to screw us over more" "will we get a new model that changes everything" and so on. I'm now just waiting for the next pieces of news. waiting for the next glimmer of hope. not really invested in a faction that i have indeed invested in up to this point. It feels like it's all just one more step away, each time and every time. A never ending "wait for x or y. that will fix it" i'm getting off topic...sorry I started Warmachine with Cryx toward the end of MKII and I definitely know that pain. I couldn't handle waiting for God-knows how long before the models I loved were actually playable again, so instead of fretting and sweating I decided to start fresh with a new faction, which is how I ended up with Legion. Even though Legion clearly has some balance issues and isn't the meta boogeyman like some other factions I could mention I didn't mind at all. It was super refreshing to start over and come at the game without the specter of MKII souring everything. To me it doesn't matter that X, Y, and Z models were more powerful / fun in MKII since I never experienced them. I get the privilege of focusing on the Legion that exists right now, and it's been really nice. TL;DR - Maybe try a new faction if you are finding your self trapped in a holding pattern.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2017 3:55:50 GMT
Kallus 2 feels like he is missing a future release. He is incredibly fury strapped, which is frustrating. The other casters you mentioned were all well designed, and were unbalanced in the ham fisted transition to mk3. Taking a break to another faction, or whatever way you choose to find a breath of fresh air is good advice. That may even mean just taking a break from the game.
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