thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on May 26, 2017 15:57:06 GMT
I'm looking into what Testament can do with the new Vessel of Judgment and Bastions/Vengers.
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Post by streetpizza on May 26, 2017 15:57:48 GMT
I think PP kinda equated like you did here, and that's why troops generally feel a tad too pricey. Reckoners also have still-amazing guns, which is 90% of why I take them still. Sure but remember that troops were heavily undercosted in MKII. There is a balance to be struck here. Maybe 6 wounds on each bastion is the sweet spot? A round of CID is definitely not an unreasonable request I'm just saying people need to temper their expectations a little.
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Post by paradox on May 26, 2017 16:07:50 GMT
I used to love running jack spam in mk2 and I ran it very successfully. I tried doing it in mk3, I tried doing combined arms and each time I had 0 enjoyment in running it. I'm not sure anyone can fix joy for you. All I can say is my experience is teh reverse. Finally getting to enjoy power up, especially in Creator's Might, is stupidly fun. Would it make you feel better that I burn Ret to death with Feora1? You literally have a jack theme now. And it's good. It's not Heavy Metal good, but it's close. You can complain about that, but it'd be like asking for a MKII Haley2 - ie a bad idea. That's like begging to get kicked in the junk. See Una2. We still have synergy. Literally, even. Vessel is denial. Lots of spells are denial (I had someone refuse to drop Haley3 into me because Spellpiercer denied him his tricks). Harbie is amazing denial. KE sennys are denial. Vessels are loaded with denial. I agree with Street Pizza above. Maybe stay with Ret til MKII is out of your system.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 26, 2017 16:43:58 GMT
Shit, I take a year off to play Circle and the whole community drowns in the oceans. I think you're fighting a losing battle here, Paradox. There's a lot of PoM players extremely happy with all what the faction offers and all the things there are to discover. They just don't see a point in discussing it where the only opinion you get is "PoM sucks, PP actively hates PoM, MAT6 warjacks unplayable, Choir nerfed to the ground, Harby garbage, denial non-existant, recursion non-existant, fire irrelevant, models impervious to enemy attacks and auto-killing enemy the only way PoM can be made fair and right" There were good reasons for PP nuking the faction forums on their board, I'm sure the PoM forum was one of them. Unfortunately the venom and powerlessness of a vocal minority came here (as I was afraid of). It's not all PoM community though. We just play and win and enjoy. For example I can't wait for what the Polish WTC players have prepared PoM-wise:)
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 26, 2017 17:18:43 GMT
Shit, I take a year off to play Circle and the whole community drowns in the oceans. I think you're fighting a losing battle here, Paradox. There's a lot of PoM players extremely happy with all what the faction offers and all the things there are to discover. They just don't see a point in discussing it where the only opinion you get is "PoM sucks, PP actively hates PoM, MAT6 warjacks unplayable, Choir nerfed to the ground, Harby garbage, denial non-existant, recursion non-existant, fire irrelevant, models impervious to enemy attacks and auto-killing enemy the only way PoM can be made fair and right" There were good reasons for PP nuking the faction forums on their board, I'm sure the PoM forum was one of them. Unfortunately the venom and powerlessness of a vocal minority came here (as I was afraid of). It's not all PoM community though. We just play and win and enjoy. For example I can't wait for what the Polish WTC players have prepared PoM-wise:) Good points, Cyel. Speaking as your mod, I will admit that I try to be a font of the anti-salt and admittedly have a bias against too much salt and complaining. That also means that as a mod, I have to overcorrect and allow people to vent as much as they like (as long as they stay on topic, are somewhat articulate, and follow the rules). While I do agree that this behaviour will lead to the subforum getting salt-saturated at times, anything otherwise is (I believe) censorship of people's opinions and leads to a worse outcome than salt saturation. Because let's be honest, all salt comes from some valid concerns. The game ain't perfect, and just banning being salty will be dismissing those (perhaps valid) concerns.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 26, 2017 17:23:07 GMT
Speaking of all this saltiness makes me miss darvain and his hot garbage chronicles
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Post by paradox on May 26, 2017 17:34:50 GMT
I'm all for open conversation. I'm not saying mod the salties. I am saying that I definitely don't agree on alot points being raised in defense of saltiness.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 26, 2017 17:45:23 GMT
Shit, I take a year off to play Circle and the whole community drowns in the oceans. So, to be more positive... Outside of Bastions and Deliverers, I really like the choice of units we have. I've loved Cleansers since the start of MKIII, and every time I look at another faction to play, I find that I miss my Cleansers Knights hit like a Firetruck and I find it easier to deliver them now. TFG are great at dying slowly (no, I really mean it. This is why I take them, they still do a good job as tarpit for their points). I never really play Errants in MKII, so I have no preconceived notions about how good they were, though I have yet to play them in MKIII either. Our 'jack's are great. The Reckoner is still a versatile 'jack, the Redeemer is outright amazing, I love the Vigilant and I think that the character 'Jacks are all amazing. Heck, I've even found the Castigator useful in the odd list or two. I will admit that the Vanquisher and the Repenter aren't as useful as they could be, but I think that's down to meta rather than design. Our battle engine is going to be above the curve once it's modified and our solos are mostly good (I've yet to use all of them, but have no complaints so far). And our casters are, outside of one, pretty good, and even that one brings something unique to the table. All in all, I love this faction and am actually happy that my playstyle is now rewarded pretty well. (I love 'jacks).
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Post by Demeritus on May 26, 2017 17:50:37 GMT
As I said before, I know I am very salty and this thread is an example of that, I hope I am not coming off as venomous (thought I am frustrated), and to your point Dox, I have really focused on my Retribution and have enjoyed it greatly but I do miss and want some of the old tricks to return. I will thank those who have come to this topic to discuss their views of the faction with me, it is quite different from my local area where many of the old hands (like myself) are pretty much out. Cyel I am actually enjoying Paradox offer counterpoints as it is giving me things to think about, and while at the end of the day we may not agree if nothing else it's a different viewpoint and is something to think about.
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Post by gargs454 on May 26, 2017 20:55:19 GMT
Problem with that theory is that this is the same synergy they have with Tristan 2 and that still didn't get them on the table. The problem is that all too often, even with sanguine bond, they still just die before you can get them healed. They need something to keep them alive. Whether its increasing the range of sanguine bond, adding hit boxes, or some other defensive tech/stat they still just take too long to deliver and tend to just be dead by the time you get a chance to heal them. As for Protectorate in general though. I don't think we're in a bad place specifically, but we're also not in a so-called great place. Rather, I think we are pretty much right on the curve. Our biggest strength lies in the fact that we have such a deep stable of usable casters and models which means that its hard to specifically tech against Protectorate. The flip side though is we really don't have anything so powerful that it forces other factions to tech against us. Being right on the curve means that we can do relatively well in tournaments, but makes it difficult to win major tournaments when there are other factions/lists out there that are notable above the curve because in order for Protectorate to win, it really is a case of everything must go absolutely right. I do understand the lack of identity issue though. The problem is that much of our identity is stuff they either wanted to give to other factions too (Jack Faction) or was something that became an unpleasant game experience for our opponents (Faction of No). I completely understand PP's thinking on the jack front. They had jacks to sell in other factions too and making more jacks necessary/playable is a great way to increase revenue for PP. You can complain about the corporate outlook, but at the end of the day PP is still a business and as a business they still need to make money. As for Faction of No, I'm a bit more salty about that, but again, I can also understand the frustration, especially for new players. When you are not really allowed to do much, it can be very boring. As an example (and a bit of an aside) I remember a Magic Deck that I built one time that focused on removing your opponent's cards from play. Well, I finally got it to work one time and literally, every card my opponent put out, got removed. Making matters worse though, in order to get the deck to work right, I had to sacrifice a lot of offense, so it ended up being a really long game because I was dealing one or two points of damage at a time. Even for me, it was incredibly boring. Now to be fair, I am pretty salty about the whole Fire thing. I get that there are flavorful reasons that it makes sense for other factions to get some bit of fire in their arsenal, but it does tend to hurt Protectorate more than I think PP realized -- especially as fire immunity becomes more prevalent. Fire immunity isn't a huge deal if only Protectorate can really bring a true fire threat (i.e. probably not worth building against it for most tournaments). But as more and more factions get it, then immunity becomes increasingly attractive. All that said though, lack of identity in and of itself, isn't the same as lack of competitiveness. Rather, what it does is make us long for what we used to do, and long to use models that use to be popular but now are no longer as strong, etc. So I'm reading you, and I get what you're saying, but this devolves down to: -deliverers suck (I mean, yes. Since about 2004 really) -bastions kinda suck (to be honest, I have not hit the field with them yet in MKIII. I agree troops in general got more costly by comparison, so bastions cost more, and they lost ALOT. They probably warrant a buff). -Fire Immunity Bad (I get it. It makes for some rough matches, but we have a string fire theme and it's not the most terrible thing ever. Jut occasionally challenging) -Loss of flavor. (IMO this is a personal thing. Can;t help you here. Know when else I heard this? In the MKII field test. People quit the game over loss of faction flavor from MKI.) So maybe deliverers and bastions will make a CID. This is not unique to Menoth, lots of factions have some weak or outright garbage units. I honestly have not hit a game yet where fire immunity totally hosed me in MKIII. I did with Feora vs Trolls in MKII though, so it's hardly new. Normally it's one piece presenting a challenge (like Azrael). But that cuts both ways. The Vessel having a boostable bounce that is specifically non-attack damage has helped me hose an opponent's whole defensive plan (Unhallowed, Stealth, Vengeance) repeatedly in CID games. Honestly, being right on the curve is good. We certainly have pieces above it too. CID Vessel, EoT, monk, flamebringers. Hell, my dogganm 3pt monks make people cry bitter tears. It's friggin ridiculous what this 3pt solo does.I mean, seriously. Get ready for a Dynamic Update to make this guy 4pts. We're also packed with Blessed and Magic Weapons.In addition to Fire, which is way better than people would have you believe. On paper it doesn't do much to jacklines and casters with camp. But chip damage adds up. It breaks systems. It fries support. It weakens casters such that overboosting won't save them. Warlocks are normally far lower ARM, so transfer punish beasts with Fire through a backdoor. If you're salty, feeling we're too weak, or just lost flavor, I suggest you take a weekend or whatever and totally dump MKII from your brain. Come back and look at it like a new faction. Start fresh. Play things you'd never play, and when it doesn't work the first time give it at least 4 more games and try tweaking your play to make it work. Don't let bad dice skew your vision of possibility. Shit, I take a year off to play Circle and the whole community drowns in the oceans. Actually, I was trying to convey that while I think there are issues in PoM (Just like in every faction), I do think that we are in an ok place. Ideally every faction would occupy our place on the power curve, nothing too powerful, but a good variety of options. My apologies if that did not come across well enough. I probably should have broken it up to separate posts, one for the issues and one for the positives.
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Post by dazzla on May 26, 2017 21:21:22 GMT
I think I must play in a very different meta to most people. If I wish to play competitively I play cygnar now days (and I do not play stormlances or h2). I only play Menoth for something different when I do not care about being competitive. I think that tournament results show that Menoth is lagging. I believe trolls are probably in a similar position to Menoth. But imo Menoth is behind Kador, ret, cygnar, legion, cryx (esp after cid). That means being behind the curve. I like mk3 and have a lot of faith in pp but, as I said before, right now Menoth is not in a good place.
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Post by kuririnad on May 27, 2017 18:42:36 GMT
But imo Menoth is behind Kador, ret, cygnar, legion, cryx (esp after cid). That means being behind the curve. Aren't there 12 factions? If you see 5 ahead of us, that means 6 are behind and so we are in the middle of the bell curve, erring on the side of positive.
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Post by greytemplar on May 27, 2017 19:37:08 GMT
In my opinion, the only tcharged by anyone should really avoid are Bastions and Deliverers. And there are people that can get Deliverers to work, but I don't have the patience for that right now. Bastions with new BE sounds e a synergy. On paper yes. Reality is different. Bastions simply cannot survive in the first place to get healed. They'll get charged by any crap unit and get slaughtered. They die to pow10 charge attacks from models that cost less than half of what they do. If they're close enough to share wounds, they're clumped up and will get ganged up on. You'll lose the entire unit before you get a chance to heal them. If you have Harbinger for martyrdom, you might as well have gone with Cinerators for an extrs point of arm, pow, and vengeance. That's real synergy.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 27, 2017 21:12:22 GMT
Bastions with new BE sounds e a synergy. On paper yes. Reality is different. Bastions simply cannot survive in the first place to get healed. They'll get charged by any crap unit and get slaughtered. They die to pow10 charge attacks from models that cost less than half of what they do. If they're close enough to share wounds, they're clumped up and will get ganged up on. You'll lose the entire unit before you get a chance to heal them. If you have Harbinger for martyrdom, you might as well have gone with Cinerators for an extrs point of arm, pow, and vengeance. That's real synergy. This, people need to stop with the "Bastions and BE" thing. It didn't work with Durant 2 and it won't work now. The only caster it opens Bastions up to is Testament, who still wants 10 man units anyway in my experience.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 27, 2017 22:13:24 GMT
Have to agree with Provengreil and greytemplar. When I first read the BE change, what popped in my mind was not healing Bastions, but healing jacks.
Sure, Bastions can shrug off small arms fire, but so Cinerators and buffed Errants. Also, people are probably more likely to target them with higher quality fire that will, once again, be killing them before any healing can kick in. At this point, they might as well trade Sanguine Bond for Wall of Steel, and have the Seneschal grant Leadership: +1 ARM.
BTW, I just found out the other day that the Bastion Seneschal does not have Set Defense. WTF is that? Errants get Unyielding+Assault and Exemplars get Righteous Vengeance to match Battle Driven.
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