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Post by Havock on May 24, 2017 1:09:08 GMT
While the Kayazy would need to be within 10" of him to receive Tough they don't need to be that close to receive blast-immunity, you don't need to roll tough if your opponent flat out can't hurt you.
Sitting in camp in cover and/or (preferably) using terrain to block LoS is what keeps Irusk alive.
Warjacks can be knocked down or slammed, a forest is aside from a few exceptions -himself being one of them- a pretty safe place to sit behind nowadays.
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Post by borderprince on May 24, 2017 4:34:07 GMT
Warjacks can be knocked down or slammed, a forest is aside from a few exceptions -himself being one of them- a pretty safe place to sit behind nowadays. I get your points, and don't disagree, but remember warjacks benefit from Solid Ground too, so no knockdown for his jacks as well.
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Post by Netherby on May 24, 2017 6:31:13 GMT
Look, it will work okay into some stuff and get totally trashed by other stuff (upkeep removal, push/pull/place, etc). Sure, you can put stuff outside the tough area but he needs to be casting Battle Lust any way... My point was simply that it is a sub-optimal theme for him.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 24, 2017 10:42:55 GMT
Look, it will work okay into some stuff and get totally trashed by other stuff (upkeep removal, push/pull/place, etc). Sure, you can put stuff outside the tough area but he needs to be casting Battle Lust any way... My point was simply that it is a sub-optimal theme for him. I've played it quite a lot and will say it certainly is not a sub-optimal choice. Sure, it won't play into everything out there, but few lists will really. I'll run through some points: 1) It's a jack theme. What do our jacks generally lack? Threat range. Irusk2 has a battlegroup wide speed buff. 2) It's full of low ARM models. What do they struggle with? Blast and lightning. Irusk2 protects them from blast and while I wouldn't play this into Cygnar if I had the choice he still offers a little protection through no knockdown tough. 3) The theme prevents enemy advance deploy. Irusk provides a SPD debuff feat (as well as the friendly buff), which combines very well with a lack of AD to give you a lot more space while restricting your opponent. 4) The theme allows Behemoth, who works great with Irusk. However, it's not a good Fire For Effect target and it would be nice to be able to fuel it without taking focus from Irusk himself... 5) The theme answers both these issues through a simple destroyer on a (free) forge seer. The marshalled destroyer is an excellent Fire For Effect target and the forge seer can fuel Behemoth's second cannon. As a bonus the forge seer gains tough and gets blast and knockdown immunity, plus is often in cover. 6) Kayazy don't hit quite hard enough at times. Irusk2 fixes this with Battlelust. Given people saying Malakov2 has potential since Veil of Mists can help them use their mini-feat to get through models and back stab them, the ability to simply make them weaponmasters is very solid. That's all I can think of for now. The list has a lot of interactions that work really well. Cheers, Dave
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Post by calaman on May 25, 2017 6:40:35 GMT
I copied the Irusk2-list from your thread with one minor change - I do not own a manhunter, so I took a second Forge Seer instead to fuel up Jacks. Played it against Fyanna 2 and won 5-0 on Scenario. It was not the typical Oracles-List as my friend wanted to try out his newly assembled Nyss Swordsmen. But I was surprised how well the list really worked. I would not play it into a Gunline but I will take it to a small SR next week. Thinking about pairing it with either Z1 or I1 in Legion of Steel
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 25, 2017 6:59:35 GMT
Cool!
I want to try a second forge seer instead of the manhunter, but only own 1 just now. The manhunter is nice because with it has built in tough, so can hang out further forwards than 10" while still being stealth, immune to blast, tough and steady. Gives a little more forward presence.
Hopefully this weekend I'll try out the same list again, except I want to swap both juggernauts for a spriggan and second eliminator unit. Will see how it goes!
Currently pairing it with Strakhov1 in Legion of Steel.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by calaman on May 25, 2017 7:27:16 GMT
One point we discussed after the game was to remove the Mechanics and replace the Juggernauts with Kodiaks as they have built-in Pathfinder. But I am not sure if the list would lack some punch then.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 25, 2017 7:31:46 GMT
Interesting thought! I'll have a play around and see what I come up with.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Cirga on May 26, 2017 13:42:15 GMT
Cirga Mom, is that you? First, jdeckert , now you. Be still my beating heart. Maybe Killax or Magnus will show up next. Rowdy, you're right. They don't. I think that was the point...But if you took Behemoth and 2 Destroyers who cares? I've been lurking on this forum from time to time since PP first brought the main one down, just hadn't felt like creating an account to post until now. I've also been on the CID forum as well as the Khador reddit.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on May 26, 2017 15:09:36 GMT
I was able to smash Vlad1 with my Irusk2 in Jaws. Was quite comfortable in new SR since keeping dicstance for a turn is not as punishing now. Also Irusk's feat gives a great angle in ignoring a centrepiece los-block (it is forest 50% of the time) so actually denying enemy advance there very much.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 28, 2017 21:03:54 GMT
Just played my new list into Morghoul3, won on assassination. List felt very solid, was pleased with it! Here it is for reference:
Jaws of the Wolf Irusk2 -Behemoth -Juggernaut -Kodiak Greylord Forge Seer -Destroyer Manhunter Widowmaker Marksman Battle Mechaniks (Min) Kayazy Assassins (Min) -Underboss Kayazy Eliminators Kayazy Eliminators Widowmaker Scouts
So I dropped the assassins to a min unit in order to upgrade one juggernaut to a kodiak and get a second eliminator unit. I really liked the change! The assassins spent most of the game blind due to Morghoul's new spell, so having a min unit was actually a help. The kodiak made deployment much easier since I could park it behind a forest, plus the extra distance turn one (heavy boiler plus Energizer) was handy. The second eliminator unit was as good as you'd expect, and they actually got the assassination after Morghoul had been caught in a few blasts over a couple of turns.
The one change I'm considering now is swapping the manhunter to a second forge seer. However having a stealth, tough, blast, steady model that doesn't need to be within 10" of Irusk and still packs a serious punch has been proving very nice to have and I'm not sure a second forge seer would add anything.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by calaman on Jun 5, 2017 20:38:48 GMT
So, I took the Irusk2 Jaw of the Wolf-List to a small SR using CID2017-rules: Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Irusk 2) Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Behemoth [25] - Juggernaut [12] - Juggernaut [12] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kayazy Assassins (max) [15] - Kayazy Assassin Underboss [4] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Fuel Cache (Objective) [0] I paired it with B3, also in theme for the ARM scew: Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Butcher 3) Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [10] - Ruin [17] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Behemoth [25] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Fuel Cache (Objective) [0] I finished 1-3. I just dropped Irusk once as I was afraid to drop him into Cygnar (Jack-Heavy or Storm Lances). Afterwards I was not sure if this list could handle a Jack-Heavy Cygnar list with the Juggernauts and Behemoth and Battle-Lust Assassins. The game I used Irusk was a Strakhov2-Legion of Steel. I lost the game because I clocked myself...at this point, my opponent only had a Conquest with appr. 10 Boxes and Strakhov himself on the board, while I still had Behemoth, half of the Widowmaker, the Marksman, one Eliminator and half of the Assassins on the board and was leading 6-5 on scenario...missing practice with the list, I think. The Irusk2-List was definitely the correct answer to LoS - ignoring ARM and tough. Also the 2 Forge Seers are great - having 2 additional Focus/turn is great. And in my last game with B3 against H2, I charged Behemoth for free (Jack Marshal) and 2 Focus into a Stormwall - and he took out 2/3 of its boxes alone. I will go on playing both lists, I just need more practice. Hopefully I will be able to get to another tournament in the next 2-3 months (having 3 children with 2 of them playing soccer is very time consuming ). The only piece I was not that convinced of was the Marauder. It did nothing than killing a Shredder in one game. I am thinking abouth switching it for something else, but I am not sure what. For a Devastator, I would need 4 more points. More Infantry? Against Jack-Heavy/Beast-Heavy builds I would use B3 I need ARM cracking. I am not sure.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 6, 2017 4:55:34 GMT
I charged Behemoth for free (Jack Marshal) and 2 Focus into a Stormwall - and he took out 2/3 of its boxes alone. You used the free charge advantage rather than Crush? I think that's the wrong way to do it. Consider: Free charge + 2 focus = 4 P+S 12 AP attacks + 1 dice for boosted damage on the charge + boosted charge attack roll. Pay for charge + 1 focus + 1 attack from Crush = 4 P+S 14 AP attacks + 1 dice for boosted damage on the charge. The free charge option gives you a boosted charge attack roll, but you don't need that against a Colossal. Meanwhile using Crush instead gives you +2 to each damage roll, adding up to +8 damage done total on a low DEF model like a colossal.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 6, 2017 11:43:58 GMT
The only piece I was not that convinced of was the Marauder. It did nothing than killing a Shredder in one game. I am thinking abouth switching it for something else, but I am not sure what. For a Devastator, I would need 4 more points. More Infantry? Against Jack-Heavy/Beast-Heavy builds I would use B3 I need ARM cracking. I am not sure. The Marauder is a valuable piece if you come across huge bases. Compared to Behemoth a Marauder trades up against huge bases (especially Battle Engines) and has a greater threat range thanks to Energiser. It's also worth thinking about what else the Marauder brings - threat saturation is the most obvious. It's an additional (cheap) jack which cannot be ignored, perhaps distracting other anti-jack fire from your more expensives models.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 6, 2017 14:26:43 GMT
Yeah, Marauder is basically Butcher-level threat against huge bases. Since those are the biggest threat to Butcher himself because you can't push them and you have to go all in with feat to kill them with Butcher, it's useful to have something that helps Butcher deal with them.
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