d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 23, 2017 13:21:26 GMT
x.O; I would very much like to play against this strategy of not having a tarpit unit, but just a few jacks instead. I can think of a couple combinations that would make you cry x.O; Xerxis2 Stampede list as well as a Morg2 (or 3) list would all be in love with you having to dedicate so much focus just to leave yourself even more vulnerable. No matter how fast a list may be, if you don't at least have something to fill the voids you're no more difficult to kill than a stationary target. I'm also interested to see the lists. Morghul 2 doesn't look like a caster that wants to play into a jack line, particularly a jack line that is spell immune unless there's a compelling reason for passage to be sung. The feat (which I think you alluded to) seems useless. Blind is effective at doing two things - bringing high DEF models down to a level you can hit, and making enemy warrior models useless for a turn. Against a protectorate jack line you are getting neither of these benefits. Would Morghul really get so close to the jacks just to inflict them with a shakable status effect?
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Post by streetpizza on May 23, 2017 13:29:08 GMT
The indictors also have play vs Cryx but then I'm not so sure Amon is the right drop there to begin with.
IF you had to play that matchup though the indictor would probably be worth its weight in gold. Run a fortified indictor into combat with the enemy caster and see what they do.
Also not bad vs Circle to prevent hunters mark or any of their other shenanigans.
The Amon list I'll be testing soon has but one for running up front and taking the first hits:
Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Creator's Might
(Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29]
- Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Indictor [15] - Templar [15] - Templar [15]
The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
I do think dropping one templar down to a crusader for the hierophant and extra wracks would be the way to go but I only own the two of them. I've also found a castigator or two to be great for clearing any enemy jam to allow the rest of the list to do work.
Protectorate Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] The Creator's Might (Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29] - Castigator [12] - Castigator [12] - Crusader [10] - Crusader [10] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] - Indictor [15] - Hierophant [0(3)]
The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [3] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 23, 2017 14:28:31 GMT
With amon specifically, a revenger is an often underestimated model. Ignore the arc node: you're taking it for repulsor shield and powerful charge. It can take an alpha from even most heavies and live, and powerful charge allows it to kick off a synergy chain at MAT 8.
Another idea (don't do this) is the devout wall. build synergy chains on BOTH player's turns!
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Post by Manathern on May 23, 2017 18:45:51 GMT
I have played against Amon quite a few times and have never seen him outside of the theme force, and I do not think it would be worth breaking that theme to take any other units. I am surprised I have not seen Amon with a bunch of Indictors yet. Having a bunch of arm 21 jacks that are immune to spells and non-magic shooting, Spd 6 with pathfinder, blessed, mat 10 ps 22 with Synergy at full, that shut down spells within 5", why would you not play that? I like the Indictor going against Hordes armies (Troll, Everblight, and etc.) It asks good questions on where they should position their beast in order to get the best out of animy or whenever charging in is a good idea or not. A Fortified Indictor is a scary thing if you need an animy on to kill it and you don't finish it off, or if you go against something that is in its bubble. What would you say is the ideal number of Dervish to own? I will soon have 3. I saw a lot of 4 or 5 around. Overkill?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 23, 2017 19:00:40 GMT
Depends on how much you play amon. 2 is more than enough for anyone else, he probably wants 4. Some variety is more expensive, but also still effective and more fun.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 23, 2017 21:13:51 GMT
mkay x.O; got a lot of questions of what my lists look like for taking on someone like Amon when he's running jack heavy... First, the question about why you don't see Morg2/3 lists at official tournaments.
Morg2 is the only one that currently qualifies for tournaments, Morg3 is our newest caster. Both, however, are assassination only casters. As you should know, tournaments for the past couple of years have included Scenario points to determine winners, forcing players to move away from caster kills and into attrition wars. PP has announced that they do want to make caster assassination play a heavier role in the next editions, but no official statements have been made as of when or how. Thus, even if Skorne plays Morg2 and kills your caster on the 2nd to 3rd turn every game, we'd never place because of lack of scenario points.
As for why I said that Morg2 and Xerxis2 would be hilarious to run against an Amon list without a gap filler, Morg2 has gained his balls back and on feat turn could pretty much auto kill Amon after receiving future sight and having our attachment place Mortality on Amon. Even if Morg2 fails to kill Amon, he'd be left with low boxes against pouncing kitties jumping over your jack line. The problem here is that as long as he can draw LoS, Morg2 + Kitty Squad is gonna rip him apart. When you only have jacks to block LoS, all I need to do is run the kitties down one side of the board and you're suddenly stuck between choosing to defend against being assassinated from the front or the flank. A tarpit unit would be able to fill in the gaps made from moving your jacks forward and quickly fall back around Amon when an assassination attempt is imminent.
Xerxis2 stampede list is a little more funny and I have a completed list that I just need to tweak how I play it on the board to make it tournament worthy.
Xerxis2 -Bronzeback Titan -Tiberion -Titan Cannoneer -Titan Sentry Tyrant Zaadesh -Titan Gladiator Beast handlers (max) Beast handlers (min)
As you can see, this list only relies on a single animus, all others are passive synergies, such as reducing fury count, +2 spd for all beasts, and beast handler prodding as well as their actions. You'll also notice that it has a lot more punching power than Amon while maintaining the same amount of speed. Once we actually get a decent theme for beasts you'll probably see us run lists like this quite often.
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Post by Swampmist on May 24, 2017 0:42:47 GMT
settle down guys, no need to start calling eachother names.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 24, 2017 4:14:35 GMT
As for why I said that Morg2 and Xerxis2 would be hilarious to run against an Amon list without a gap filler, Morg2 has gained his balls back and on feat turn could pretty much auto kill Amon after receiving future sight and having our attachment place Mortality on Amon. Even if Morg2 fails to kill Amon, he'd be left with low boxes against pouncing kitties jumping over your jack line. The problem here is that as long as he can draw LoS, Morg2 + Kitty Squad is gonna rip him apart. When you only have jacks to block LoS, all I need to do is run the kitties down one side of the board and you're suddenly stuck between choosing to defend against being assassinated from the front or the flank. A tarpit unit would be able to fill in the gaps made from moving your jacks forward and quickly fall back around Amon when an assassination attempt is imminent. Xerxis2 stampede list is a little more funny and I have a completed list that I just need to tweak how I play it on the board to make it tournament worthy. Xerxis2 -Bronzeback Titan -Tiberion -Titan Cannoneer -Titan Sentry Tyrant Zaadesh -Titan Gladiator Beast handlers (max) Beast handlers (min) As you can see, this list only relies on a single animus, all others are passive synergies, such as reducing fury count, +2 spd for all beasts, and beast handler prodding as well as their actions. You'll also notice that it has a lot more punching power than Amon while maintaining the same amount of speed. Once we actually get a decent theme for beasts you'll probably see us run lists like this quite often. I'm not really seeing how either of these lists is better into Amon than the traditional Xerxis 1 counter. Morghul 2 playing around for an assassination angle sounds like a viable strategy (depending on the Amon list), but Xerxis 2 seems outnumbered and lacking a counter for enliven, particularly if placed on a jack that can't be knocked down. I'm can't generalise for every Xerxis 2 build, but the one you listed isn't ideal. I guess I thought these were going to be hard counters, the way you talked about them before. But they're no worse than what Protectorate already has to prepare for when making a pairing.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 24, 2017 5:50:56 GMT
the morg2 counter would be a hard counter, however you need to plan for multiple lists when you're going to a tourney. Xerxis1 is my more popular choice, but he uses mass infantry, not large beasts. Xerxis2 stampede is kind of like Khador heavy spam on steroids. Though it doesn't have the armor, its damage output is unreal. Castigators, Crusaders, Dervishes, the bronzeback, tiberion, and even the gladiator would rip them apart single handedly. They will all be at speed 6 + rush makes them 11 inches on the slam and the charge with pathfinder and I haven't included their attack ranges. All Titans have 3 attacks (cannoneer has gun replacement for 1) and are all heavy hitters. Tibs and the Sentry are also holding a shield to top it off. They specialize in slams, making things really interesting when you are fielding so many medium and large bases with smaller bases behind them. Throwing jacks into jacks is also real fun! Think you can knock out some specs before they get another chance to thrash you about? beasthandlers can medicate and I have extras to still give the additional damage
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 24, 2017 6:50:55 GMT
Re Morg2 - like I said, depends on the Amon list. Many Amon players run a vigilant + devout (myself included), so you can't take it for granted that you can see Amon or target him with spells, you have to clear the way. Another reason it depends on the list is if the Protectorate play is running a Sanctifier (which I do as well), Morghul then can't rely on incorporeal to reach Amon.
You aren't advantaged into a matchup if assassination is your only win condition from the start. Sorcha1 and Kreoss1 can usually play attrition if the opponent doesn't provide the opening for an assassination, but here it looks like Morghul has no attrition game at all.
Re Xerxis2 - There's no doubt that any one of Xerxis' heavies can 1-round a jack, but Amon is spamming jacks that can also 1-round beasts when synergy is built. If it comes down to trading jacks and beasts, Amon has more pieces to trade. The question also still remains about Enliven - what happens when an enlivened fortified indictor/templar walks into the charge range of 3 warbeasts? Xerxis would have to throw 2 beasts at it to lock it in melee, 2 beasts which are now in range of the 2nd wave of jacks. Doesn't sound good.
On the skorne side, Xerxis himself a wildcard since sprint is exactly what you need for killing a jack and getting away from the certain death retaliation. It's an interesting matchup to theorymachine...
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 24, 2017 8:50:22 GMT
I'm not that familiar with Skorne unfortunately, but the last few Masters I've felt pretty save at def 20 behind a fortified Vigilant, also against Skorne ^^ As for scenario being a thing, ofcourse, but it only works if your caster stays alive What do you mean with not being placed due to lack of CP? CP as a tiebreaker are only relevant if you don't win the event. And indeed, with the new SR, I think Amon will have a hard time winning on scenario and he doesn't have a long range assassination. So that means attrition, which he should do fine.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 24, 2017 22:35:06 GMT
Morg2, full name of Lord Assassin Morghoul, is a spd 7, PS 13 magical, blessed, weaponmaster with pathfinder and stealth. He starts at MAT8, is steady, and has grevious wounds. His secondary weapon is a "fan" with PS 8, but it is also magical and causes blindness. When it comes to assassinations he has 2 important spells, 1 is Mortality that lowers def and arm by 2 while also removing tough and the other is Shadow Play which makes any friendly faction model gain incorporeal for the turn. His feat blinds all enemy models within his ctrl range. To top it off he also has a decent amount of beast points at +29. He likes to bring mobile units, generally in mass, along with models like the extoller ward that can give him eyeless sight and the Cyclops Savage which can give him Future Sight. Molik Karn is a common tag along because of the 5 inch repo as well as the willbreaker for all of his abilities. Bloodrunners that gain parry, Kitties with their solo, if you give him a gap it won't matter what kind of protection you have on him... other than eyeless sight *growls at Legion armies*
As for Enliven x.O; where the hell are you going to run too? thanks for the freestrike? Enliven's movement would just make him a better target. If they decide to take the hit with 23 armor, well, that's why tibs is in the list in the first place. PS 18 + 2 from the beasthandlers and a free charge is PS 20 with 3 dice and 4 fury to buy extra attacks while still having a PS 15 Tusk attack and PS 14 shield attack that also boosts his armor to 21. I'd generally choose Molik Karn over Tibs, but unfortunately Xerxis ctrl range and fury management is a toughy. I want to test the list out a few more times to see if I actually have fury to spare or if I'm always running red hot.
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Post by knapsen on May 24, 2017 22:43:36 GMT
Amon gives Parry to the whole BG. Think there are no Freestrikes when walking away with Enliven.
Also Amon with Vigilant has, due to Cover, DEF20. With Devout he is also immune to spells and has a shield guard.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2017 0:56:32 GMT
Amon gives Parry to the whole BG. Think there are no Freestrikes when walking away with Enliven. Also Amon with Vigilant has, due to Cover, DEF20. With Devout he is also immune to spells and has a shield guard. Precisely. With the enlivened/fortified jack I mentioned, there is nothing the Skorne player can do to kill it with a single beast - it's just going to walk away after 1 hit. It can't be knocked down, slammed, or blocked in due to the lack of a chaff unit in this particular Xerxis build. If you are going to talk about how Xerxis2 would make Amon cry, you should know what the Amon list does first.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 25, 2017 3:39:14 GMT
I see, yes I did forget about them getting parry when they run away. Welp, that clears it. I'd have to show it to you on the board. oh, FYI, cover and concealment are both neutralized in melee combat. Also, being knocked down, or slammed doesn't affect throws in the least ^-^ nor does it help against counter charges.
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