d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2017 3:57:52 GMT
oh, FYI, cover and concealment are both neutralized in melee combat. Cover from an obstacle (or a vigilant) is a +2 bonus to DEF in melee.
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Post by Swampmist on May 25, 2017 4:06:00 GMT
I do not believe a vigilant counts as an obstruction for that actually.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2017 4:12:17 GMT
The key word is obstacle, not obstruction. Edit: Actually irrelevant, didn't realise obstuctions had the same wording for bonuses.
Whilst the wording isn't completely black and white on the obstacle text, no one I've played against (including the local WTC players) has interpreted it to not grant the +2. Would appreciate clarifications if they exist online.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2017 4:43:27 GMT
I can see after looking at the melee attack modifiers table that the vigilant doesn't grant it. My entire local meta read this incorrectly. Thanks Swamp.
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Post by knapsen on May 25, 2017 10:04:58 GMT
Vigilant text says: Roadblock [... provides cover ... as if it were an obstacle ...]
Obstacle says: "A model with any portion of its base obscured from its attacker by an obstacle gains +2 DEF against melee attack rolls and may gain a DEF bonus against ranged or magical attacks for concealment or cover depending on the nature of the terrain (p. 82)."
Ergo I read +4 DEF against Ranged and Magical rolls and +2 DEF against Melee rolls
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2017 12:08:21 GMT
That's the only way to read if you you only look at p.82. And that's why I thought it got the +2. Reading the melee modifiers table is where the other stance comes from.
Vigilant grants cover like an obstacle. Cover is listed on the ranged attack DEF modifiers as +4, simple enough. Cover from obstacles is not listed on the melee modifiers table, however. The +2 DEF comes if an obstacle or obstruction is intervening terrain between you and your attacker. The vigilant rule doesn't make it count as intervening terrain. It would arguably need those exact words to grant the +2.
If it's true that it doesn't grant the +2, then there's a secondary adjustment I'm going to need to make as well. I don't see a range limit on intervening terrain in the rules (correct me someone), only for cover/concealment. I played it before as 'cover, but for melee', meaning that my model needed to be within 1" of the obstacle to receive the +2 DEF. Without a range limit, an attacker could be standing next to a wall, and even if it has chain strike and the terrain is more than 4" away from my model, I still get the +2 DEF. Seems silly.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 25, 2017 19:09:09 GMT
Only cover versus ranged and not the +2 versus melee. The 'as if it were an obstacle' refers to the way you claim cover (within 1" en LoS over the base etc). As per a Masters Judge.
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Post by flamigant on May 27, 2017 14:33:22 GMT
Protectorate of Menoth - amon
Theme: The Creator's Might 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Devout - PC: 9 - Vigilant - PC: 9 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Templar - PC: 15 - Devout - PC: 9
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack (The Creator's Might) - 3 Wracks: 0
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
THEME: The Creator's Might
Is this playable ?
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 28, 2017 1:52:35 GMT
Protectorate of Menoth - amon Theme: The Creator's Might 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Devout - PC: 9 - Vigilant - PC: 9 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Templar - PC: 15 - Devout - PC: 9 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack (The Creator's Might) - 3 Wracks: 0 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 THEME: The Creator's Might Is this playable ? Drop something for at least a max Choir, or 2 min units of Choir, imho.
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Post by flamigant on May 28, 2017 7:18:22 GMT
I posted thislist because someone was pretty sure we could play a 100 points of jacks plus support ! Like oracles .... I told him that would be idiotic ofcourse without a minimum investment of at least 2 choirs.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 28, 2017 13:05:15 GMT
I posted thislist because someone was pretty sure we could play a 100 points of jacks plus support ! Like oracles .... I told him that would be idiotic ofcourse without a minimum investment of at least 2 choirs. Actually, I think Malekus can pull it off. Or will be able to someday. Malekus -revelator -revelator -eye of truth -dervish min choir this hits 75, has lots of ranged fire and excellent open fire targets for burnyface, and gets 4 free cards. No wonder they won't give it to us.
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Post by flamigant on May 28, 2017 14:20:13 GMT
I posted thislist because someone was pretty sure we could play a 100 points of jacks plus support ! Like oracles .... I told him that would be idiotic ofcourse without a minimum investment of at least 2 choirs. Actually, I think Malekus can pull it off. Or will be able to someday. Malekus -revelator -revelator -eye of truth -dervish min choir this hits 75, has lots of ranged fire and excellent open fire targets for burnyface, and gets 4 free cards. No wonder they won't give it to us. My wallet hurts by seeing this list but it looks awsome ofcourse
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