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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 14, 2017 1:38:59 GMT
Help. Please, komrades, I need help.
My anchor list continues to be Karchev in Jaws of the Wolf. I take 8 jacks (3 marauders, 2 jugs, 2 Kodiaks, 1 destroyer), WMM+Scouts, double seers, mechs. I like this list. It wrecks face. When I lose, I generally feel is usually my own bad play. There are some matchups though that are just...well...not good.
So I need a second pairing.
I'd been playing Butcher 3, and maybe that's not a bad answer. I got hooked on OW2 during the CID, but proxy bases on unreleased models aren't legal in steamroller tournaments so that's not a short term strategy. I'd be interested in your input on whether you think it's a good one, because I'm thinking OW2 in WGK theme is pure gold.
I've been dating Vlad 1 lately, trying to get the hang of V1 rocketspam. A hardcore gunline seems like a nice pairing for Karchev.
I've been encountering a couple of problems.
Public enemy #1 is the clock. The clock is not my friend, and I have been having a very hard time managing the clock with 3 units of WG and 9 rockets, plus the weapon crews and jacks. For those that have more games then me using Vlad 1, is there hope if I stick with it? Is it worth it?
Public enemy #2 is that Vlad 1 like fair fights. I'm feeling like there's a lot more unfair stuff out there. Maybe it's time to date a new caster. I own them all...
So, what do you think?
I feel like I need to just pick a 2nd caster for the summer. My big tournament will be Gen Con, and I need to just "get good" with someone.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 14, 2017 1:49:00 GMT
Depends on what you like to play. Id rather loose in style then resort to a spam list for instance.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 14, 2017 2:23:21 GMT
Legion of Steel.
My idea of a good pairing is jaws list + legion list. My problem with Jaws were always Synergy/Def skew lists and shooting doesn't answer them well either, while Legion does.
It's somewhat time consuming, but tactician and high arm makes fangs easy to position in bricks as opposed to squishy winter guard.
Some may say it would create list chicken issues, but I've yet to see list pairing where one list counters Jaws and other counters Legion, usually it's one or the other, so you pick the list they haven't counter against. Legion isn't that easy to counter as it may seem and you can differentiate it's weakness somewhat by changing caster.
Other than that I don't know. Jaws and WGK seems to share boogeymen matchups.
I currently think the best Jaws caster is V1 though. Seers really improved the list with him. He outthreats almost everything, has good anti-shooting tech and both damage and hit buffs.
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Post by borderprince on May 14, 2017 4:36:17 GMT
Help. Please, komrades, I need help. My anchor list continues to be Karchev in Jaws of the Wolf. I take 8 jacks (3 marauders, 2 jugs, 2 Kodiaks, 1 destroyer), WMM+Scouts, double seers, mechs. I like this list. It wrecks face. When I lose, I generally feel is usually my own bad play. There are some matchups though that are just...well...not good. Which match-ups do you find problematic? That will get you more tailored advice and probably be more useful. |
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Post by Voodoogk on May 14, 2017 4:45:13 GMT
I think you're lacking in pathfinder/quick moving stuff. That army is going to get zoned out on stuff like linebreaker (dunno off the top of my head if something like that exists in sr2017) vs very movement heavy lists (think hylenna). You need something that moves fast, with toolbox answers since karchev is more of a one square peg fits all kinda guy. I'd recommend either strakh1 if you wanna go jacks... I'd either play him out of theme so you can take ruin, or in wolf for some marshalled destroyers, he really has a magic weapon shortage. Second would be Z1 in iron fang theme, Fast moving, pathfinder and Z1 does everything... my only problem with her is I need more practice.
B3 works too.. he's always been my go to, but he's borderline redundant with karchev.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 14, 2017 18:46:06 GMT
Thanks for the initial responses. Here are some replies to your questions...
I have a pretty broad appetite in terms of what I like to play, but I will say that my own worst enemy is the clock. This is one of the reasons I'm shying away from Vlad 1 rocketspam. That list is brutal into the right matchups, but if the game goes more than 3 rounds I'm toast. Maybe it's worth practicing. I played Irusk 2 for a bit and struggle with the same issue (too many dudes).
I've been wanting to try the Legion of Steel list with Strakhov 2 or Zerkova 1. Conveniently, I have 1X Black Dragons, 1X Vanilla Pikes, 1X Uhlans, Great Bears, Markov and 2X Kovniks so I can tool the jacks around that. I am a bit worried about 2 things though -- is this too many models for me to handle, and what does Legion do against incorporeal? Maybe the Karchev list is good enough to handle matchups with a lot of incorporeal dudes.
I've also toyed (meaning, done a bunch of theorycrafting lists on Warroom) with the idea of Strak 2 out of theme, because I think either Alexia+Risen or Nyss, either with Valachev, would be balls out awesome. The problem would be deciding which one.
To a certain extent, I feel like I'm buying time until Old Witch 2 finally drops. I don't know if OW2 is coming out before Gen Con. I really liked her final iteration in the CID, and feel like her tech might be a good compliment to Karchev's.
I can't say that I'm having trouble with one or another particular kind of list at this point that I'm specifically teching for. Mostly, I'm looking for something to drop when what I'm facing is just really scary for a list with 8 warjacks. I think this is mostly "scary infantry". (The Amon synergy train is a tough match but I feel it's not unwinnable.)
Thoughts on specific casters...
I've been playing Butcher 3, but as Voodoo says he's borderline redundant with Karchev. Maybe I'd feel differently if I really tweaked the build.
I've been wanting to try the Legion of Steel list with Strakhov 2 or Zerkova 1. Conveniently, I have 1X Black Dragons, 1X Vanilla Pikes, 1X Uhlans, Great Bears, Markov and 2X Kovniks so I can tool the jacks around that. I am a bit worried about 2 things though -- is this too many models for me to handle, and what does Legion do against incorporeal? Maybe the Karchev list is good enough to handle matchups with a lot of incorporeal dudes.
During last season's ADR, I was playing a Sorscha 1 gunline. I haven't picked her up in a year...maybe it's time to revisit her with one of the themes? Feels like she hates the stuff that hates Karchev. Part of me wants to say screw it and drop Sorscha 1, Fenris, and 4 or 5 units of Doomreavers (man I want a doom theme). I mean...really. If someone brought 6 beasts or jacks, I'm going to drop Karchev. We've got a guy in our shop who plays Zaal 1 and Zaal 2 dudespam. I think a list will all the doomreavers might have a fun time into that.
True story -- near the end of MK2, on a lark I finally bought enough doomreavers to field the old style Mad Dogs list. I finished painting them like a week or two before MK3 dropped. Now, I've got 8 units just collecting dust. It's maddening.
The other casters I was playing last year were Butcher 1 (who is just too slow) and Vlad 2. I haven't played Vlad 2 in MK3. I like playing for the assassination with Vlad 2, and have thought about the Jaws theme with all the Kayazy.
Anyway, please keep sharing your thoughts.
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Post by welshhoppo on May 14, 2017 18:53:37 GMT
I played Legion 3 times in my masters and two of them were against ret (Issyria double invictors, Elara with Infiltrators, Nyss and other things.)
Legion has very good game into a lot of things, but it does suck really bad into anything which is incorporeal, I got around it against Skorne by letting a void spirit get into combat with an iron fang and once he killed it and overtook I counter charged it and killed it.
But yeah, it sucks into incorp.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 15, 2017 2:30:59 GMT
Would Butcher 2 in Jaws be a stupid drop? I mean... he eats infantry for lunch himself, including all of those pesky incorporeal dudes. You get Ruin. Double forge seers... Hmmm...
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Post by borderprince on May 15, 2017 7:33:31 GMT
Thanks for the initial responses. Here are some replies to your questions... I have a pretty broad appetite in terms of what I like to play, but I will say that my own worst enemy is the clock... I've been wanting to try the Legion of Steel list with Strakhov 2 or Zerkova 1. Conveniently, I have 1X Black Dragons, 1X Vanilla Pikes, 1X Uhlans, Great Bears, Markov and 2X Kovniks so I can tool the jacks around that. I am a bit worried about 2 things though -- is this too many models for me to handle, and what does Legion do against incorporeal? Maybe the Karchev list is good enough to handle matchups with a lot of incorporeal dudes. I can't say that I'm having trouble with one or another particular kind of list at this point that I'm specifically teching for. Mostly, I'm looking for something to drop when what I'm facing is just really scary for a list with 8 warjacks. I think this is mostly "scary infantry". (The Amon synergy train is a tough match but I feel it's not unwinnable.) ... During last season's ADR, I was playing a Sorscha 1 gunline. I haven't picked her up in a year...maybe it's time to revisit her with one of the themes? Feels like she hates the stuff that hates Karchev. Part of me wants to say screw it and drop Sorscha 1, Fenris, and 4 or 5 units of Doomreavers (man I want a doom theme). I mean...really. If someone brought 6 beasts or jacks, I'm going to drop Karchev. We've got a guy in our shop who plays Zaal 1 and Zaal 2 dudespam. I think a list will all the doomreavers might have a fun time into that. True story -- near the end of MK2, on a lark I finally bought enough doomreavers to field the old style Mad Dogs list. I finished painting them like a week or two before MK3 dropped. Now, I've got 8 units just collecting dust. It's maddening. The other casters I was playing last year were Butcher 1 (who is just too slow) and Vlad 2. I haven't played Vlad 2 in MK3. I like playing for the assassination with Vlad 2, and have thought about the Jaws theme with all the Kayazy. If clock is your problem, at some point you need to face up to it. LoS is probably easier on the clock than Rocket spam, simply as units have fairly clear plans. But incorporeal is an issue. I've been thinking about Butcher1 in LoS. You get Ruin for an extra magic weapon, ARM and damage buffs. The theme gives him cavalry (which he likes) and pikemen of one sort or another further up the field which might help with the speed point you noted. For dealing with scary infantry, I think Kayazy might be a good option. Ret Sentinels do not like Anatomical Precision. Vlad2 or maybe Zerkova1 in Jaws? Ghost Walk is good on the Assassins with mini-feat. But really, do all the Doomreavers. All the time. It will be glorious. It will be fun. Sorcha1 or Zerkova1 (for the cloud wall). |
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Post by skathrex on May 15, 2017 10:28:44 GMT
To be quite honest, the state of the current meta is really difficult to decipher and you should focus on your local meta/ the meta you want to attend.
I have seen so many shifts lately, depending on where the tournaments are.
Cryx winning the SOO, Welsh was won by Cygnar and Nordish (tournament in Germany) was won by Skorne.
There are a lot of threads out there and I don't think Khador is in a position to ask questions to a meta. The other armys have way better mechanics compared to our "fair" game.
A Jackspam is a really solid start, because its our best way to attrition.
Right now I think I would play it with some for of WG-Theme, because I just don't see LoS into some of the major threads out there anymore. (Ghost Fleet, Skorne gunline etc.) Additionally depending on your meta, people start to take means vs infantry again, because of Ghost fleet and LoS.
The only problem I would see with Vlad1+Karchev is the before mentioned "fairness". You have to play around your opponent. If he brings clouds, Incorp, recursion or staying power, you will play his game.
Thats one of the reasons I prefer casters like S1, SK1 or Z1 (yay for short versions) where you are more of an active player.
of course if you know your meta you can just go with anti-casters like S2.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 15, 2017 15:35:32 GMT
I've been wanting to try the Legion of Steel list with Strakhov 2 or Zerkova 1. Conveniently, I have 1X Black Dragons, 1X Vanilla Pikes, 1X Uhlans, Great Bears, Markov and 2X Kovniks so I can tool the jacks around that. I am a bit worried about 2 things though -- is this too many models for me to handle, and what does Legion do against incorporeal? Maybe the Karchev list is good enough to handle matchups with a lot of incorporeal dudes. Incorporeal is what second list is for. Legion of steel can't deal with incorporeal and has no way around it unless you play Butcher+Ruin and he's not very good at protecting fangs. I wouldn't want to play melee dudespam into Cryx anyway, they seem to have a lot of stuff that can randomly counter it. Karchev is definitely better into Cryx. |
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Post by Netherby on May 16, 2017 2:15:22 GMT
Public enemy #1 is the clock. The clock is not my friend, and I have been having a very hard time managing the clock with 3 units of WG and 9 rockets, plus the weapon crews and jacks. For those that have more games then me using Vlad 1, is there hope if I stick with it? Is it worth it? There is totally hope for you. I think 3 full units are manageable under standard death clock with practice. I'm not sure about going beyond that. Is it worth it? Well I don't know about that... Because you can make pretty decent lists with a lowish model count. In theory running lots of models gives you more options and can give lower model count armies a rough time. In practice it all depends  I think the only question is: Do you enjoy playing lots of model lists? If you're looking for a new caster to try, I'm thinking Z1 in either Jaws or Legion is looking really good. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 16, 2017 11:38:36 GMT
There is totally hope for you. I think 3 full units are manageable under standard death clock with practice. I'm not sure about going beyond that. Is it worth it? Well I don't know about that... Because you can make pretty decent lists with a lowish model count. In theory running lots of models gives you more options and can give lower model count armies a rough time. In practice it all depends I think the only question is: Do you enjoy playing lots of model lists? If you're looking for a new caster to try, I'm thinking Z1 in either Jaws or Legion is looking really good. I think you're lacking in pathfinder/quick moving stuff. That army is going to get zoned out on stuff like linebreaker (dunno off the top of my head if something like that exists in sr2017) vs very movement heavy lists (think hylenna). You need something that moves fast, with toolbox answers since karchev is more of a one square peg fits all kinda guy. I'd recommend either strakh1 if you wanna go jacks... I'd either play him out of theme so you can take ruin, or in wolf for some marshalled destroyers, he really has a magic weapon shortage. Second would be Z1 in iron fang theme, Fast moving, pathfinder and Z1 does everything... my only problem with her is I need more practice. B3 works too.. he's always been my go to, but he's borderline redundant with karchev. Thanks for the input. I really should try Legion of Steel. Can you give me any tips on doing this with Z1 except "drop cloud wall and get alpha"? As another point in favor of this, last fall and winter, I painted all of my Iron Fang Pikemen and Uhlans... and the pikemen have really just sat there since I painted them.
Maybe something like this? It's every Iron Fang model I own. I have an extra painted vanilla pikemen officer and standard for the Black Dragons, but I glued the black dragon shields on...and they're painted black and steel...so I don't think they'd be tournament legal as a second vanilla unit. Khador - Zerkova 1 Legion Theme: Legion of Steel 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova - WJ: +28 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) Iron Fang Kovnik - PC: 0 Iron Fang Kovnik - PC: 0 Uhlan Kovnik Markov - PC: 7 Black Dragons - Leader & 9 Grunts: 17 - Black Dragon Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 Iron Fang Pikemen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Great Bears of the Gallowswood - Volkov, Kolsk, & Yarovich: 9 Iron Fang Uhlans - Leader & 2 Grunts: 12 There's no shooting, but I guess that doesn't matter? In terms of "fun"...I think B3 is "fun" because I do love a caster that can get upfield and wreck face. He just feels a bit redundant with Karchev in terms of how I've played him. I really want a second force I can drop when I'm facing someone else's dudespam. Perhaps I should just think about retooling my Butcher list to put in more infantry killing Kayazy and Eliminators. This level of combined arms model count is pretty comfortable for me...1 big unit, a few small units, and bunch of jacks. Khador - Butcher 3 Jaws Anti Infantry Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - War Dog - PC: 0 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Marauder - PC: 10 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 0 I'll also say that I can't shake the interest in picking up B2 again in Jaws. But...argh...the random focus is a caster killer. |
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Post by skathrex on May 16, 2017 13:32:25 GMT
Z1 is a very good toolbox and synergizes very well with LoS. You will get the Alpha if you do not misplay. Additionally she has Ghost Walk, which really supplements this army and HexBlast which is a real boon.
Added to that she is really save and her clouds are amazing with countercharge models.
And yes your army looks good to go. Just the Jacks are a bit meh. I don't think she needs more clouds and Rng support is very much needed.
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Post by Voodoogk on May 16, 2017 18:04:55 GMT
How to play Z1 would be its own thread I think.. she can do all kinds of things. Shes fairly similar to Haley2 in that she should be able to get the alpha and make you wait a turn doing nothing. She does a fair bit of work with her spray as well, though she's a bit focus hungry without syllys. 39 points in jacks probably would be better spent on conquest, or go with a wj points battlegroup. She doesnt need pathfinder jacks, she needs jacks that hit hard or have ranged attacks. Watcher is a good reason to bring a juggernaut. I really like her with full uhlans but ymmv. heheh short post for a long amount of data sorry.. maybe some other time after I feel like I'm good with her.
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