cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by cassus on May 12, 2017 10:32:35 GMT
So one of the players from my local meta is running this list and I am struggling to come up with a good list to counter it
Jaws of the wolf theme
Karchev -Juggernaut -Juggernaut -Juggernaut -Kodiak -Kodiak -Devastator -Devastator Grey lord seer - free with theme Gray lord seer - free with theme Kayazy Assassins -Under boss - free with theme
My first instinct was to throw Zaadesh2 into this but that list only had 5 heavies vs this lists 7 heavies. I don't think I will be able to get the amount of two for one trades out of it that I would need to even the odds. How do we deal with something like this?
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Post by dessert hydra on May 12, 2017 12:09:29 GMT
Does he Jack marshal with the gery lords?
I've had success against Karchev with X2.
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cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by cassus on May 12, 2017 12:16:29 GMT
No he just has them there for the extra focus and cause he gets them for free. Their magic attack is also nice to.
I starting to think I really need to get X2
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Post by dessert hydra on May 12, 2017 13:04:45 GMT
He's fun to play with and paint!
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on May 12, 2017 13:48:06 GMT
I don't think a beast heavy list is going to be a successful answer. Khador does jacks a fair bit better than we do beasts I think.
Zaadesh2 is an excellent anti-melee warlock. However, I've seen it first hand and on many battle reports where an all beast Zaadesh list fails because a single fast high def jamming unit from the enemy engages all the beasts and prevents any important countercharges. That's what the Kayazy will do. Things that can stop Kayazy-type units in the time you have to stop them would be Cannoneer, Catapult Crew, bloodrunners+tormentor, and maybe Orin. I'd recommend Immortals with Zaadesh because they can be a very effective defensive strike unit on feat. Not quite strong enough to threaten arm20 though.
Makeda1 with 2 units of Farrow Brigands under a task master can hit jacks really hard and her feat works on minions, so retaliatory strikes will be great anti-melee tech with them. Keep the Kayazy off of you with the afore mentioned elements and it could be effective.
This next part is only theory, but there are the Arcuarii. With Makeda1 and Zaadesh2, their defensive strike and retaliatory strike feats are a huge deterrent to all melee lists. Most of our infantry can't threaten arm 20 on either of those feats, though. Swordsmen mini feat isn't active on the opponent turn. Immortals get the closest, but don't work at all with Makeda1's feat, and still aren't threatening to arm 20 even with Zaadesh2. Arcuarii, however, are our faction's strongest retaliatory strikers and defensive strikers. Makeda1 and Zaadesh2 both have a lot of capability to deliver this usually difficult to deliver unit. These guys have a very good chance to cripple a system when the jacks are coming in especially under Zaadesh2 since I think they end up P+S14 on feat turn.
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cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by cassus on May 12, 2017 14:23:29 GMT
Didder I agree with high def unites being a problem for counter charger. I am thinking of Adding Chiron to my Zaddesh2 list as that Rat6 spray will do work to clear infantry and hopefully help this jamming problem. Not to mention the counter blast / defensive strike synergies.
I run a similar list with Mak1 and Farrow I just use a single unite of brigands + warlord and 2 units of slaughterhousers. I only own a single unite of brigand so I cant run double. Pow 13 (Thank you PGTM) slaughterhousers with 4 dice on the charge and mat9 do work though. Just not sure they can chew through several armor 20 heavies before getting killed off. I typically back them up with double cannoneers and a soldier.
While I agree the Arcuari are a good defensive strike option, only being arm15 and 5 boxes just doesn't seem worth the points as I am pretty sure they will melt very very quickly.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on May 12, 2017 14:36:02 GMT
I'm not blind to the Arcuarii's shortcomings. Their stat line is atrocious, although that point being knocked off helps. Maybe I'm too optimistic. However, with these two casters, and into this matchup, they seem very solid as an answer to a unique problem. Both warlocks have ample means to protect them from range between clouds, quicken, and krea. Both warlocks make it so it doesn't matter if they can't do a shoot and drag or get a charging alpha off. They will die in melee for sure, but with these casters they will get their weapon master attack off anyway, and they still need at least a modest commitment by the enemy to kill.
Farrow and Swordsmen infantry might be the best option though, it's true. Can't quicken or carnage them though.
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cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by cassus on May 12, 2017 14:56:34 GMT
Most of the time I don't need to quicken or carnage them, each unit kind of fixes that for themselves. The brigands have hog wild and reposition to help out with movement. The Slaughterhousers have powerful charge which makes them Mat9.
Against armor 20 the Slaughterhousers should do 6 damage each on average so each unite should be able to kill a Khador heavy who has 1 damage on it. The Brigands will be at dice -6 vs a prey target that's armor 20 so maybe 1 damage on average dice. So they don't do to terribly much but still enough to enable the slaughterhousers.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on May 12, 2017 18:56:30 GMT
Makeda2 and the cats should be able to deal with this. Just don't let anything get to Makeda.
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cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by cassus on May 13, 2017 1:42:06 GMT
So I fight this list tonight and I ended up taking winds of death Hexy1 cause I figured its the only theme we have why not try and make the best of it since I know I cant kill him in a heavy vs heavy fight.
Hexy1 -Cannoneer -Cannoneer -Cannoneer -Cyclops Savage Venator Dakar Venator Dakar Extoller Soulward (free with theme) Extoller Soulward (free with theme) Min Beast handlers Max Venator Reivers -Officer Max Venator Slingers
My slingers and eyeless sight cannoneers killed all but one of his Assasins on turn two and the last one had corrosion on it (which it died to). After that the slingers managed to all but kill one Kodiak (it had parasite on it) themselves leaving it on 1 box. My cannoneers roughed jack after jack from range, the wall stopped him from charging me for 2 turns. The revivers were off on the flank and killed a juggernaut on there own over 3 turns. The game ended with trying to shoot Karchev to death behind a wall an failing to land flare from one of the 3 slingers I had left and a boasted parasite missed. However with the amount of fire that did hit Karchev was left on 10 HP, my opponent couldn't win on scenario and when he attempted to hit my castor and 4 other models with Karchev's spray aimed he missed 3 out of 5 and only killed one infantry meaning he couldn't get enough stuff close to Hexy to assassinate me. I shot him to death the following turn.
Overall I am very surprised this list dead close to this well. A lot of this I think came down to my opponent not unpacking well through he rough terrain that covered the field and holding off advancing his force up the board for one turn as he consolidated his jacks together after getting them around the rough terrain. Still triple cannoneer's do work.
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Post by Cryptix on May 13, 2017 12:51:27 GMT
I've used this list to good effect:
Zaadesh2 - Soldier - Despoiler - Gladiator
Mist Speaker Kist Speaker
Max Karax Max Swordsman + UA Max Swordsman + UA
Feat and minifeat on your engagement turn and try to take out as many heavies as possible.
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Post by debilitate on May 13, 2017 20:09:52 GMT
So I fight this list tonight and I ended up taking winds of death Hexy1 cause I figured its the only theme we have why not try and make the best of it since I know I cant kill him in a heavy vs heavy fight. Hexy1 -Cannoneer -Cannoneer -Cannoneer -Cyclops Savage Venator Dakar Venator Dakar Extoller Soulward (free with theme) Extoller Soulward (free with theme) Min Beast handlers Max Venator Reivers -Officer Max Venator Slingers My slingers and eyeless sight cannoneers killed all but one of his Assasins on turn two and the last one had corrosion on it (which it died to). After that the slingers managed to all but kill one Kodiak (it had parasite on it) themselves leaving it on 1 box. My cannoneers roughed jack after jack from range, the wall stopped him from charging me for 2 turns. The revivers were off on the flank and killed a juggernaut on there own over 3 turns. The game ended with trying to shoot Karchev to death behind a wall an failing to land flare from one of the 3 slingers I had left and a boasted parasite missed. However with the amount of fire that did hit Karchev was left on 10 HP, my opponent couldn't win on scenario and when he attempted to hit my castor and 4 other models with Karchev's spray aimed he missed 3 out of 5 and only killed one infantry meaning he couldn't get enough stuff close to Hexy to assassinate me. I shot him to death the following turn. Overall I am very surprised this list dead close to this well. A lot of this I think came down to my opponent not unpacking well through he rough terrain that covered the field and holding off advancing his force up the board for one turn as he consolidated his jacks together after getting them around the rough terrain. Still triple cannoneer's do work. You might be able to swing one more free model by replacing a Cannoneer with an animantarax with latest battle wagon CID. Dig the list.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 13, 2017 22:31:05 GMT
hmm... rip them apart. Xerxis1, Tibs, Ferox, Immortals, Aradus Soldier. They are better at armor but we are better at killing stuff, especially in melee. Use his feat for an additional di on melee damage rolls and just tear him to pieces. Immortals on an auto 3 dice, 4 on the charge? Ferox pouncing for the same? our weapon master stuff roll 5 dice on the charge, INCLUDING Molik Karn! The only issue is needing Xerxis in the center of the action because of his 10 inch control range, but if he's fighting melee? he'll be bringing his stuff to you.
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Post by sentinel on May 15, 2017 8:40:53 GMT
I had success at a tournament against Karchev (lead on attrition and mission heavily, but let juggernaut assasinate me) with this list:
Xerxis, Fury of Halaak — WB: +28 — Aradus Soldier — PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) — Aradus Soldier — PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) — Archidon — PC: 10 — Archidon — PC: 10 — Titan Gladiator — PC: 15 Venator Dakar — PC: 0 Venator Slingers — Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 Venator Slingers — Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 Paingiver Beast Handlers — Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Paingiver Beast Handlers — Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 THEME: Winds of Death
I'm gonna write a report soon.
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Post by fragpalm on May 15, 2017 18:09:52 GMT
Can't wait to hear about it, Sentinel. I've contemplated using Xerxis2 to solve Khador as well. My list was more aggressive in terms of beasts, but yours is more creative.
A friend (excellent player) that plays Khador has suggested a Zaadesh list for handling Khador:
Zaadesh Agonizer Glad Tiberion Sentry Sentry Sentry
Orin Feralgeist Swamp Gobber Chef
Handlers (min) Swamp Gobber Bellows
I'll be testing it out tomorrow, but the theory is sound. Even the average Juggernaut can't simply solo-kill a Sentry at arm 21 (according to Buy or Boost), and with the Agonizer or Inviolable Resolve that armour is amplified, meaning our beasts generally get a second round.
My friend mentioned that clouds and forests are a problem for Khador. Hence Zaadesh and the Gobber Bellows.
Having three Sentries also hurts attackers on feat pretty significantly. Retaliatory Strike, Defensive Strike, and maybe a counter charge at mat8 p+s18 can shut down a weapon, or in the case of other factions, Spirit, curtailing damage further.
I happen to find Zaadesh rather hard to use, but I'm willing to try anything at this point.
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