cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156 
|
Post by cassus on May 10, 2017 17:09:52 GMT
Fellow tyrants I've been seeing a lot of discussion on what the best way to run Zaadesh2 is. Some people are leaning towards exclusively beasts with beast handlers while others are adding in a bit of infantry to chump block enemy charges. What are your best Zaadesh2 lists and what do you like/hate to run him into?
My best Zaadesh 2 is:
Zaadesh2
-Ardus Solider
-Ardus Solider
-Titan Sentry
-Titan Sentry
-Gladiator
-Agonizer
Max Karax
Max Beast handlers
Swamp Gobber Bellows crew
4 beasts with reach to be able to swing across my line of karax if my opponent attacks them. Karax to keep my beasts from getting alpha striked and jam up the board. Bellows crew is there to add an extra cloud to zaadesh's cloud wall.
|
|
didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
|
Post by didder on May 10, 2017 17:54:19 GMT
Zaadesh2 has a lot more to offer, I think.
1. High Def: Z2's clouds debuff enemy mat/grant concealment, so bringing all low def heavies is sort of a waste.
2. Flashing Blade: You're going to get killed trying to use flank/flashing blade ever without Sprint/FW
3. Pathfinder: It's pretty important when using Karax, and Zaad himself if he's engaging.
What this means is maybe look at taking out some combination of Agonizer, 1 Soldier, 1 Sentry, dropping to min handlers. In it's place, put in:
1. Cyclops Brute(s): sets line of engagement much further up than Sentries. Set Defense and forced rerolls are great with a Mat debuff. Animus is fantastic on front line casters.
2. Archidon: Mostly for the Sprint animus, but again cloud debuff/concealment is really good with this guy, and the rare crit pitch countercharge is hilarious.
3. Tyrant Commander/Saxxon Orik: If the Karax get impeded by terrain, they're very much out of the game since they can only tarpit. Also, Zaadesh can hide behind a wall and still threaten flanking flashing blades with pathfinder. 4. Aradus Sentinel: Swarm is actually fantastic with Zaadesh's clouds, and unlike the Soldier, this bug actually likes hanging back for Sac Pawning. 5. Scarab Swarm. Here's a lot of countercharges! mostly these guys countercharging can make ranged/arc node models nearly useless. They won't kill anything. They fold in melee, but are great sac pawn targets. Sometimes they'll surprise you on feat with their defensive strikes. |
|
cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by cassus on May 10, 2017 18:24:45 GMT
1. Cyclops Brute(s): sets line of engagement much further up than Sentries. Set Defense and forced rerolls are great with a Mat debuff. Animus is fantastic on front line casters.
2. Archidon: Mostly for the Sprint animus, but again cloud debuff/concealment is really good with this guy, and the rare crit pitch countercharge is hilarious.
3. Tyrant Commander/Saxxon Orik: If the Karax get impeded by terrain, they're very much out of the game since they can only tarpit. Also, Zaadesh can hide behind a wall and still threaten flanking flashing blades with pathfinder. 4. Aradus Sentinel: Swarm is actually fantastic with Zaadesh's clouds, and unlike the Soldier, this bug actually likes hanging back for Sac Pawning. 5. Scarab Swarm. Here's a lot of countercharges! mostly these guys countercharging can make ranged/arc node models nearly useless. They won't kill anything. They fold in melee, but are great sac pawn targets. Sometimes they'll surprise you on feat with their defensive strikes. 1.The main reason I'm using sentries over brutes is because sentries can damage enemy heavies while brutes will struggle to starch the paint of a heavy jack/beast. In my meta pretty much none of my opponents outside of Cryx are and Cygnar are using any light jack and light beasts are just as rare. 2. I just picked one up and look forward to using him with Zaad2 in future! 3.With how sparse terrain was in the 2016 steamroller it generally wasnt to much of an issue but with the terrain set up that looks to be coming in 2017 I could see needing to include one or the other. Probably Saxon as he is 2 points cheaper and has a decent gun on him. 4.My big problem with the Sentinel and using its animus on Zaadesh is that it only effects living models. So its pretty dead into any warmachine army as its gun wont hurt jacks and its animus wont effect them either. Granted it does work vs infantry but with only a 3" AOE its gonna take a lot of turns to clear most units with that ROF1 gun. 5. Scarabs to me seem like they do far to little for the 10 point investment in taking them. Granted yes they are a great sac pawn target but no just use the Ardus solider for that or a sentry or any of the other heavies you have around that will do work in their own right? |
|
didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
|
Post by didder on May 10, 2017 19:17:52 GMT
I wasn't trying to imply that you ought to fit in all 5 of my suggestions. They're more or less ranked in order of merit.
Brutes don't hit like a Sentry, but DO take a hit like a Sentry. You have to piece trade when you can't Alpha. Park a slow heavy 4" behind a Brute, and the enemy will most often have to use a heavy to remove him, and even then he might stick around if you force them to reroll their charge attack against his Def 15. Then you take their heavy with yours.
The Sentinel is probably best as an ADR option, but has a lot of merit into hordes.
Scarabs certainly have a lot of shortcomings, but a lot of things come together with Zaadesh that works in their favor. It's a headache for the opponent to play round when they're trying to shoot or arc a spell.
|
|
cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by cassus on May 10, 2017 21:09:43 GMT
Furry management question on the brutes, if you use intuition how do you manage the your furry around that or do you just accept that you will have to take a frenzy check on someone?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on May 10, 2017 22:05:30 GMT
I use Zaadesh2 as a delivery mechanism for slower armies. Having 15" of no LOS behind which is a pack of counter charging titans or swordsmen ready to power swell.
|
|
cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by cassus on May 10, 2017 22:10:13 GMT
How are you getting a 15" smoke wall? He can only put out 3 3" smoke templates?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on May 10, 2017 22:14:21 GMT
Two mist speakers, should have specified.
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on May 11, 2017 3:34:23 GMT
didder was pretty much right on. Taking advantage of his counter charge is key, while keeping something back so Zaadesh2 doesn't get pummeled. I'd also prefer a krea to the agonizer, as it revokes the ability to sit back and stay out of the counter charge range and forces them to attempt a piece trade. The scarabs were also a great idea; they all get counter charge and can easily engage the NUMEROUS arc nodes you'll be seeing on the other side of the table. As far as the brutes, that was a math trade. A light won't take down a brute, a brute under the krea aura won't be killed from range very easily, the rest of your models can tear "stuff" up! If you can't afford to take Karn, the Archidon is a good animus replacement. His long leash will also make sure he doesn't run outside Zaadesh's ctrl. The sentinel is actually REALLY nice as a potential ranged threat. He's more of a fear factor than an actual factor, but just him being there is a pain in the ass.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on May 11, 2017 9:46:04 GMT
I've had reasonable success with this list: conflictchamber.com/#b91bgO6r6U6UcQ5J5G6A5V2NSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points (Zaadesh 2) Lord Tyrant Zaadesh [+28] - Agonizer [6] - Archidon [10] - Archidon [10] - Despoiler [19] - Molik Karn [19] - Titan Gladiator [15] - Titan Sentry [15] Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] Its relative speed combined with the clouds allows me to use the feat offensively and defensively at the same time. And with Sentry + Agonizer + another Heavy + IR it can brick up in a pinch, without sacrificing too much offensive potential. I've also tried adding Krea, Orin, Willbreakers and Soulwards via ADR and it helps a LOT, but sadly won't be available after L+L. |
|
