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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 13, 2017 21:40:26 GMT
It's so strange. By all objective measure WM is a much tighter designed game then 40K. I think 40k gets people excited because the promise of plot changes. 40k is more fun by a long shot precisly because it's not as tightly designed. It's like a Marvel movie. It doesn't require you to think too much and everyone has a good time (assuming you play with friends). No one is heavily invested in winning so there are more "sure why not moments". Honestly, I was getting hyped until it became obvious how much of AoS was in it.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 13, 2017 21:45:50 GMT
40k is more fun by a long shot precisly because it's not as tightly designed. Thats more a meta thing. Monopoly isn't tightly designed, but you will get people murdering each other over it. It just came out at the right time (As a guy who again has no investment in PP and dropped the game during MKII, and complains about MKIII all the time). It promotes "Don't worry about it because the design is awful so don't think about it", so it attracts those types of players who in turn promote that gameplay type.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 13, 2017 22:14:05 GMT
I've met miles and away more obnoxious toxic 40k players than I've ever met in warmachine/hordes.
40k is a lot easier to play, however. There's way fewer rules to keep in mind and you're not nearly as punished for not knowing the exact nuance to how things interact. People can keep coming and going from 40k as their interests and GW's releases change, but generally once you're out of WMH, you're just out. The barrier of entry and re-entry is massive, and casual players are punished with never-ending strings of losses if they aren't prepared to really take the game seriously.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 13, 2017 22:18:38 GMT
40k is a lot easier to play, however. There's way fewer rules to keep in mind and you're not nearly as punished for not knowing the exact nuance to how things interact. I think this is at the core of it really. Tabletop painting wargames are already very hard to get into, and Warmachine is very precise. Don't fully get the other Warlocks Feat? Prepare to die.
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Post by Azahul on May 13, 2017 22:39:42 GMT
40k is more fun by a long shot precisly because it's not as tightly designed. It's like a Marvel movie. It doesn't require you to think too much and everyone has a good time (assuming you play with friends). No one is heavily invested in winning so there are more "sure why not moments". Honestly, I was getting hyped until it became obvious how much of AoS was in it. Haha. Personally, I get way more fun out of a game where my opponent and I don't need to roll a dice to determine how two rules interact because the rulebook is unclear, and win/lose a game based on that. Much better to win a game where it's actually possible to plan out a strategy. Mind you, similarly, I find the Marvel movies rarely surpass "ok" for me. I way prefer movies where there's actual substance to dig into.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 13, 2017 22:45:19 GMT
I find the Marvel movies rarely surpass "ok" for me. I way prefer movies where there's actual substance to dig into. On a completely unrelated note and focusing on marvel movies I feel its like the evolution of a burger joint towards a fast food chain. At first its something neat and has some substance. But as the whole process gets regularized, planned out and repeated, it becomes more bland and unpaletable.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 14, 2017 10:21:31 GMT
I've met miles and away more obnoxious toxic 40k players than I've ever met in warmachine/hordes. To be fair 40k is waaaaaay bigger than Warmahordes even given the recent surge in popularity so of course there are going to be more arseholes in the community. I've met a lot more cool players than bad though. Honestly, I'd say the ratio of asses to cool in Warmahordes is about the same. For every 5 chill players theres one who takes the game way too seriously. Haha. Personally, I get way more fun out of a game where my opponent and I don't need to roll a dice to determine how two rules interact because the rulebook is unclear, and win/lose a game based on that. I used to think that but after about 4 years of leaning over a table and faffing with various widgets and proxy bases to make sure that one charge is within the 1mm margin of error I've lately been longing to utter the words "4+ you're in". And I also know that the "forge the narritive" thing was as widely mocked as Page 5 but I miss doing stupid shit for the sake of it being cool. One of the last 40k games I played my Necron Lord charged a Chaos Lord, blew up his command barge on the way in and we weren't sure if the charge continued after blowing up his ride (it didn't) but we both agreed that it should because the idea of a space terminator exploding his own hover chariot to propel himself to have an awesome duel was to cool to not let happen. That would never happen in Warmahordes. I don't think I've ever had anything that dumb/cool happen in Warmahordes because everything is so strictly controlled and serious, which is fine sometimes but not always what I want of an evenings toy soldiers.
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Post by Azahul on May 14, 2017 13:41:53 GMT
I used to think that but after about 4 years of leaning over a table and faffing with various widgets and proxy bases to make sure that one charge is within the 1mm margin of error I've lately been longing to utter the words "4+ you're in". And I also know that the "forge the narritive" thing was as widely mocked as Page 5 but I miss doing stupid shit for the sake of it being cool. One of the last 40k games I played my Necron Lord charged a Chaos Lord, blew up his command barge on the way in and we weren't sure if the charge continued after blowing up his ride (it didn't) but we both agreed that it should because the idea of a space terminator exploding his own hover chariot to propel himself to have an awesome duel was to cool to not let happen. That would never happen in Warmahordes. I don't think I've ever had anything that dumb/cool happen in Warmahordes because everything is so strictly controlled and serious, which is fine sometimes but not always what I want of an evenings toy soldiers. Literally "different strokes for different folks" I guess. I like that this game usually makes me feel like I won because I played better than my opponent. That sort of competition is enjoyable. All the proxy bases and widgets are great. I can actually put together and execute a plan. I will say that I don't think needing to ignore the rules to have an awesome/cool moment is something in a game's favour. The only advantage you seem to be saying that 40k has is that the rules are so poorly balanced to begin with that ignoring them makes the game better, and so it encourages you to do exactly that. You shouldn't need to break the rules to goof off or have fun. The other week I charged my opponent's Warlock with a Warbeast, knocked them down to five boxes on the first attack, and then forfeited all my remaining attacks because I had a Gobber Chef in their back arc and I didn't care if I lost the game, I just really wanted to use that Backstab rule for an assassination
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 14, 2017 16:08:03 GMT
You shouldn't need to break the rules to goof off or have fun. Can break the rules is different from need.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 14, 2017 16:19:37 GMT
Id say its the lack of context. "Story Battles" Are not promoted enough. Because of the lack of context there is not enough cool stuff to do.
I tried a story battle once and it was very fun. I sneaked some Manowars behind enemy lines using a mine cave system.
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Post by Cryptix on May 14, 2017 16:32:37 GMT
Id say its the lack of context. "Story Battles" Are not promoted enough. Because of the lack of context there is not enough cool stuff to do. I tried a story battle once and it was very fun. I sneaked some Manowars behind enemy lines using a mine cave system. But that's against the rules
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 14, 2017 16:38:49 GMT
But that's against the rules It isn't in some of the story scenarios that PP presents. At one point in time I let how a rule worked change because it made more sense for it to work so.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on May 14, 2017 16:55:20 GMT
I will say that I don't think needing to ignore the rules to have an awesome/cool moment is something in a game's favour. The only advantage you seem to be saying that 40k has is that the rules are so poorly balanced to begin with that ignoring them makes the game better, and so it encourages you to do exactly that. I think what is being compared here (or at least what Tomorrow is talking about) isn't actually the quality of the game rules. It's the attitude that the players have towards the game. Tomorrow was saying, as I read it, that when he plays 40k, the attitude he and his opponents adopt is that it's OK to be flexible and inaccurate when it comes to the rules if you feel like that makes the game slash narrative slash experience more fun (not "required to" - but "OK to"). And that this attitude isn't found when he and his opponents play WM. If you think "It should never be OK to be flexible about the rules! The game becomes totally unfun if you don't follow them ridigly!", then that's cool, then you just have a "rigirules" attitude. And if you think "Forge the narrative and follow your heart, that's so much fun!" then you have a "flexirules" attitude. These two attitudes tend to belong to WM and 40k respectively, and I do think the game writers intend to push the games themselves in those directions, but that's incidental in a sense - it's ultimately the players that choose to have those attitudes.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 14, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
I will say that I don't think needing to ignore the rules to have an awesome/cool moment is something in a game's favour. The only advantage you seem to be saying that 40k has is that the rules are so poorly balanced to begin with that ignoring them makes the game better, and so it encourages you to do exactly that. I think what is being compared here (or at least what Tomorrow is talking about) isn't actually the quality of the game rules. It's the attitude that the players have towards the game. Tomorrow was saying, as I read it, that when he plays 40k, the attitude he and his opponents adopt is that it's OK to be flexible and inaccurate when it comes to the rules if you feel like that makes the game slash narrative slash experience more fun (not "required to" - but "OK to"). And that this attitude isn't found when he and his opponents play WM. If you think "It should never be OK to be flexible about the rules! The game becomes totally unfun if you don't follow them ridigly!", then that's cool, then you just have a "rigirules" attitude. And if you think "Forge the narrative and follow your heart, that's so much fun!" then you have a "flexirules" attitude. These two attitudes tend to belong to WM and 40k respectively, and I do think the game writers intend to push the games themselves in those directions, but that's incidental in a sense - it's ultimately the players that choose to have those attitudes. Dead on.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on May 14, 2017 18:54:25 GMT
Id say its the lack of context. "Story Battles" Are not promoted enough. Because of the lack of context there is not enough cool stuff to do. I tried a story battle once and it was very fun. I sneaked some Manowars behind enemy lines using a mine cave system. One of the fun things to do is scenarios like some of the unbalaced ones that have appeared in various NQ's. For example, there was one that had Nemo, some warjacks, and maybe a few other models vs. a larger Khadoran force with no warcaster. The idea being that you are showing that 'multiplier' warcasters are supposed to be on the battlefield.
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