steck
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by steck on May 8, 2017 14:31:17 GMT
Yeah, unless you allow beasts to run for free only on turn one, it's not even close to being comparable. Also with the costs of beasts and the support abailable, most lists can manage to run all the beasts on turn one. Ok, so turn one lets say Im playing skorne, I have a gladiator and an aradus. My warcaster casts rush onto the two of them, the gladiator then activates and runs 10", the aradus activates and runs 8". Now I activate my beast handlers and they try to remove fury from the beasts before I activate the rest of my list and possibly more beasts and risk frenzy, they move up 6" and can remove fury within 3" and both of those beasts are to far up the board.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 8, 2017 14:34:19 GMT
Yeah, unless you allow beasts to run for free only on turn one, it's not even close to being comparable. Also with the costs of beasts and the support abailable, most lists can manage to run all the beasts on turn one. Ok, so turn one lets say Im playing skorne, I have a gladiator and an aradus. My warcaster casts rush onto the two of them, the gladiator then activates and runs 10", the aradus activates and runs 8". Now I activate my beast handlers and they try to remove fury from the beasts before I activate the rest of my list and possibly more beasts and risk frenzy, they move up 6" and can remove fury within 3" and both of those beasts are to far up the board. Maybe you should take a Bronzeback to remove a fury from your Gladiator?
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steck
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by steck on May 8, 2017 14:41:35 GMT
Ok, so turn one lets say Im playing skorne, I have a gladiator and an aradus. My warcaster casts rush onto the two of them, the gladiator then activates and runs 10", the aradus activates and runs 8". Now I activate my beast handlers and they try to remove fury from the beasts before I activate the rest of my list and possibly more beasts and risk frenzy, they move up 6" and can remove fury within 3" and both of those beasts are to far up the board. Maybe you should take a Bronzeback to remove a fury from your Gladiator? And thats an option, I could spend 18pts to help manage the fury across a list bringing my total points spent to help support my beasts up to 23 at the minimum (gladiator + min beast handlers). And then, yes as long as I run the bronzeback first I can run a whole titan heard first turn. But why should I need to spend 18 points to run on first turn without risking frenzy checks? What about factions that I am less familiar with? Do trolls have a bronzeback option, or legion, or minions?
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 8, 2017 14:49:00 GMT
Maybe you should take a Bronzeback to remove a fury from your Gladiator? And thats an option, I could spend 18pts to help manage the fury across a list bringing my total points spent to help support my beasts up to 23 at the minimum (gladiator + min beast handlers). And then, yes as long as I run the bronzeback first I can run a whole titan heard first turn. But why should I need to spend 18 points to run on first turn without risking frenzy checks? I understand your position here, I really do, but I do feel that I have to point out that a bronzeback is a little different from most other support pieces in that it can get work done itself. I honestly think that the least that most beasts need is a decrease in points.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 8, 2017 14:59:42 GMT
Having Khador, Cryx, Minnions, Legion, and Circle at home. I can hands down say that power up is amazing and needs to stay. It is NOT the problem. Marauders are not the problem. Point balance is the problem.
Minnions is the Hordes faction that I have the least problem building a list that works because of the constant access to the Rage animus on a GOOD warbeast that is not overcosted. Being able to hand that out to any other beast i need to is phenomenal. I've never been stressed playing a game with Gators.
Legion however, stress is a constant. I don't have the hitting power I need. I don't have the survivabilty. I don't have the board presence or model count. I have 4-5 beasts (Usually only two heavies) and no useful Animi. So I'm paying points for rules I don't even want. I have no way to buff damage outside of my casters (No dark shroud. no rage. no jack marshal crush) and a good few of our casters don't have a damage buff (Or one that only works for a certain model/attack type). I rely completely on my speed advantage, what's that? your speed 4 jacks are now speed 6 or even 8 (thanks Vlad) with advance move? All the while I'm relying my only source of weaponmaster in the faction to actually deal damage without paying 1/3 of my list points.
Add to that Legion (hordes in general really) has terrible fury value casters. Four Fury 5 casters. Our average is 6. With fury 4 heavies that means you get to run 1 without going over (cuz you camp or die). Fury management exists, yes. if you take 3 shepherds you can take 2 heavies. If you then take 2 forsaken you can take 4 heavies. So you've paid 11 points to take four ~18 point beasts. Congrats, that's your full list. Which is why Oracles is o popular, free forsaken. But everyone is getting free point themes. So all it has done is a lateral shift, not an improvement.
Circle is even worse. They're average damage is way lower without primal and their infantry cannot pick up the slack. Pow 9 weaponmasters just do not do enough work against even unbuffed arm 20. 18 points for a beast with 3 pow 16 initials is the best they get. Primal'ing it does make it wreck heavies but you lose it next turn whether it dies or not. So you can throw one out of your 2 maybe 3 heavies at theirs and get a kill, yet they still have 4+ heavies on the board, plus infantry/support. That's a terrible trade unless it went in and killed Behemoth. (I've yet to see a feral one round a colossal but people say it's possible.) though I will say I'm constantly impressed with the animi Circle brings on their beasts.
Warbeast get a point cost fee for the things they have over jacks; animi and fury. It's obvious that fury, and damage spiral healing, is better than jacks+focus. That's fine. But if you're going to pay the cost because of an animi, it needs to be a good animus that is useful more often than not. Which they absolutely aren't in many cases.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 8, 2017 15:02:43 GMT
In the end, if nothing else changes, I have say cygnarstronk's idea would probably be enough for me.
That or bring back non-self animi.
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Post by Cryptix on May 8, 2017 15:03:52 GMT
Jeez the triggering is real. When I say that beasts have unlimited fury I consider that they can fully boost/do attacks and spend all their stacks in times of need and then risk the frenzy. But still, this game is about trading so often enough that beast will be killed before it can take said frenzy check. You also get the fury back trumping most assassination attempts if you kill one beast with fury on. I dunno, I really don't see why power up should be made worse, warbeasts should be a bit cheaper that's all. Let's make a comparison shalt we? A Devout vs a Cyclops Savage. I'm deliberately choosing an average choice here so you can't say I'm biased. You do not allocate any focus to the Dervish. You leave the Cyclops at full fury and subsequently frenzies. The Clops does nothing for a turn. The Devout can move up and attack twice, potentially thrice thanks to defensive strike. Lets say the Savage didn't frenzy. They cannot charge unless at least one beast handler is devoted to them, increasing its point cost by 1.25 for each fury taken off. Comparatively, a devout has a better defensive statline, more boxes, more attacks, a better MAT and STR, and better rules. And has easier access to empower, their version of fury manipulation. The only advantages a cyclops has is an extra SPD and having an animus that is competitively lackluster. In a jack spam vs beast spam list, you will see that the latter has far less beasts then Amon's 6 dervishes because we cannot manage that many. Our beasts are lower value and yet more expensive points wise and resource wise.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 8, 2017 15:28:21 GMT
Maybe you should take a Bronzeback to remove a fury from your Gladiator? And thats an option, I could spend 18pts to help manage the fury across a list bringing my total points spent to help support my beasts up to 23 at the minimum (gladiator + min beast handlers). And then, yes as long as I run the bronzeback first I can run a whole titan heard first turn. But why should I need to spend 18 points to run on first turn without risking frenzy checks? What about factions that I am less familiar with? Do trolls have a bronzeback option, or legion, or minions? Honestly Trolls can't afford enough beasts to run into this problem.
Actually that's slightly disingenuous. We could but the list would be awful. We have too much support bloat to run as beast heavy, as effectively as Skorne or Legion.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 15:36:56 GMT
Let's make a comparison shalt we? That was a poor comparison on its own. Sorry but its best to compare more similar options. Of course the Beast With 1 Attack will have less attacks then the Jack with multiple attacks.
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Post by elladan52 on May 8, 2017 15:44:42 GMT
Let's make a comparison shalt we? That was a poor comparison on its own. Sorry but its best to compare more similar options. Of course the Beast With 1 Attack will have less attacks then the Jack with multiple attacks. A better comparison is the brute.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 8, 2017 15:46:08 GMT
In a jack spam vs beast spam list, you will see that the latter has far less beasts then Amon's 6 dervishes because we cannot manage that many. Our beasts are lower value and yet more expensive points wise and resource wise. I'm pretty sure this is an intentional difference built into the divide between jacks and beasts. Big stompy robots are meant to be exactly that. What's more efficient in real life; an assembly line robot or a lizard/dog/elephant? What's easier and takes less time/resources; building a robot you have a blueprint and factory dedicated to, or training an elephant to wear armor and beat up robots with exotic weapons? Beast are over costed. I think out of everything I've played the Blackhide Wrastler is the best non-character warbeast in the game. It's just great at what it does. It's animus makes everything else you bring with it good. It's got pretty good stats with a built in defense buff vs. ranged, and it's only 16 points. I'd love to see more things like it. I think the main hordes factions need beast point costs dropped. Not by a ton, but something. Maybe Skorne is good after the rework; I don't know enough to say. But maybe 2 points off the Carnivean chassis? 16pt Zuriel? 8pt Soldier? 3pt stinger, 7pt raek, 8pt protector, the list goes on. <offtopic> But I still want to punch animi designers in the face. Blightbringer and Archangel need new animi period. Swap the animi on the soldier and raek. stop doubling up on fringe case animi (counter blast, attractor, dodge). And give us something interesting! I want something like a Krea bubble, predator's instinct back, the splatter boar AoE drift gambler, etc. </offtopic>
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 8, 2017 15:56:48 GMT
And thats an option, I could spend 18pts to help manage the fury across a list bringing my total points spent to help support my beasts up to 23 at the minimum (gladiator + min beast handlers). And then, yes as long as I run the bronzeback first I can run a whole titan heard first turn. But why should I need to spend 18 points to run on first turn without risking frenzy checks? What about factions that I am less familiar with? Do trolls have a bronzeback option, or legion, or minions? Honestly Trolls can't afford enough beasts to run into this problem.
Actually that's slightly disingenuous. We could but the list would be awful. We have too much support bloat to run as beast heavy, as effectively as Skorne or Legion.
Legion doesn't have support bloat because we have no good support. For beasts specifically. We have a ton of support bloat when it comes to our infantry; pricey UAs, standard bears with no weapon, solos with special rules that are near required to run the unit (Grotesque assassin), then the 38 points for the blight bringer if you want infantry to really do some work. Legion isn't meant to run that infantry heavy though...At least I'm pretty sure we're not. We didn't before. but things have changed. It's "all new war" after all.
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Post by Tekanan on May 9, 2017 3:22:32 GMT
Playing devils advocate here to the peeps who feel many changes are needed to bring back "balance" to the game. Why make so many changes when you can just change one rule and solve most if not all the problems? Pls don't get triggered.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on May 9, 2017 5:14:35 GMT
Honestly Trolls can't afford enough beasts to run into this problem.
Actually that's slightly disingenuous. We could but the list would be awful. We have too much support bloat to run as beast heavy, as effectively as Skorne or Legion.
Legion doesn't have support bloat because we have no good support. For beasts specifically. We have a ton of support bloat when it comes to our infantry; pricey UAs, standard bears with no weapon, solos with special rules that are near required to run the unit (Grotesque assassin), then the 38 points for the blight bringer if you want infantry to really do some work. I think the principle difference between Legion and Trollblood support is that even though I'm spending 24 points on support, the Seraph and Forsaken actually do a reasonable amount of work.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 9, 2017 5:57:07 GMT
Playing devils advocate here to the peeps who feel many changes are needed to bring back "balance" to the game. Why make so many changes when you can just change one rule and solve most if not all the problems? Pls don't get triggered. Just because I say your idea is bad doesn't mean I'm "triggered".
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