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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 5, 2017 17:13:16 GMT
Whilst I'm enjoying my Greylord forge Seer, I still do wish that Jack Marshalls overall would be better, and I am of the opinion that The Greylord could still do a bit more without reaching OP areas (And it would still be counterbalanced by what it looses, and the vulnerability of the Marshal):
Just allow them to pick 2 Abilities per turn at once. Im coming blank on anything especially OP that could come as a result of that. At least no effect more powerful then something done by Warcasters.
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Post by Tekanan on May 6, 2017 16:05:14 GMT
My suggestion to fix Jack Marshal is the following steps.
1) Do not change current Jack Marshal Rules
2) Fix/Balance Power Up
Current Jack Marshal rules are good as it is. The problem is with Power Up being too efficient, the current reasons why one should Marshal a warjack is weak.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 16:09:17 GMT
My suggestion to fix Jack Marshal is the following steps. 1) Do not change current Jack Marshal Rules 2) Fix/Balance Power Up Current Jack Marshal rules are good as it is. The problem is with Power Up being too efficient, the current reasons why one should Marshal a warjack is weak. Jacks finally being able to charge on their own is overpowered now?
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Post by Tekanan on May 6, 2017 16:56:57 GMT
My suggestion to fix Jack Marshal is the following steps. 1) Do not change current Jack Marshal Rules 2) Fix/Balance Power Up Current Jack Marshal rules are good as it is. The problem is with Power Up being too efficient, the current reasons why one should Marshal a warjack is weak. Jacks finally being able to charge on their own is overpowered now? No, but having 8 warjacks capable of getting a free focus each turn does seem too efficient compared to hordes' restrictions and unit choices available. Personally imo, with the advent of power up's efficiency, most units are slightly overcosted. They should be 1-2 pts less. But I digress and I guess u have a point. My suggested solution is not a "quick and dirty" fix.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 6, 2017 16:57:42 GMT
No, but instead of unlimited power up, at least maybe cap power up with something like a multiple of the FOCUS stat. Half seems too low, but full seems to high once you're getting to 7+.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 6, 2017 17:30:10 GMT
I thought you had solved it with the two abilities idea, but then I remembered Redeemers getting Take Aim! and Strike True! That's a lot of RAT 5 POW 16 (Base 12 + Take Aim! + Choir) with POW 10 blast damage rockets heading your way. It's not exactly broken on its own, but with pSevvy or Feora3, you have this 15 point module (Redeemer + Reclaimer + 1 member of a choir) that out guns almost anything in faction (the Revalator is the main exception here). No, but instead of unlimited power up, at least maybe cap power up with something like a multiple of the FOCUS stat. Half seems too low, but full seems to high once you're getting to 7+. I think that really is the problem when it comes to capping power up. Do you make it an arbitrary number? Do you tie it to a stat? Either option gives a bad result somewhere, but of the two, I'd rather it be tied to the focus stat. But enough of that digression. It's Jack Marshal that's being examined, not power up.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on May 6, 2017 17:32:04 GMT
You know what would be fantastic for jack marshalls? Reduce the opportunity cost associated with them. Battlegroup spells, benefits, and points limit the value of a jack Marshall. Also two abilities is great unless you're using a seether in the ilo.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 6, 2017 17:38:07 GMT
I think removing the 1 jack limit would go a long way to fixing it. The buffs already work best with volume of attacks, so being able to take more really drives down the price, hopefully to the point where it can compete point for point with the more straight up powerful options.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on May 6, 2017 17:39:26 GMT
I think removing the 1 jack limit would go a long way to fixing it. The buffs already work best with volume of attacks, so being able to take more really drives down the price, hopefully to the point where it can compete point for point with the more straight up powerful options. Kind of. It also makes the marshal more fragile and important to keep safe
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spideredd
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Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 6, 2017 17:40:25 GMT
I think removing the 1 jack limit would go a long way to fixing it. The buffs already work best with volume of attacks, so being able to take more really drives down the price, hopefully to the point where it can compete point for point with the more straight up powerful options. A marshal can control up to 1/2 CMD warjacks perhaps? Kind of. It also makes the marshal more fragile and important to keep safe That could be a way to balance it.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 6, 2017 17:49:40 GMT
Kind of. It also makes the marshal more fragile and important to keep safe There's a difference between more fragile and higher priority. Maybe have an Iron Sentinel like ability be built into the jack marshal rule if they end up being particularly vulnerable. As an aside, I've always felt autonomous/wild jacks/beasts should be able to be reclaimed by spending a focus/fury while it's in control or command range.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 17:53:04 GMT
Im personally not that super impressed by the worst case redeemer scenario, because you cant boost and need to aim.
Im not sure why one would marshal more then 1 jack. Since at the moment charging takes up your entire thing.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 6, 2017 18:53:36 GMT
Whilst I'm enjoying my Greylord forge Seer, I still do wish that Jack Marshalls overall would be better, and I am of the opinion that The Greylord could still do a bit more without reaching OP areas (And it would still be counterbalanced by what it looses, and the vulnerability of the Marshal): Just allow them to pick 2 Abilities per turn at once. Im coming blank on anything especially OP that could come as a result of that. At least no effect more powerful then something done by Warcasters. Jack Marshalling is fine. I use the Dawnguard Scyir plenty in Retribution as it stands, and it would be absurd to allow a Hydra to get both Take Aim and 'whatever the other ranged one is called' or Crush and Charge. The issue has much more to do with the plethora of powerful battlegroup only spells and power up (neither of which hordes gets, at least at the same power level or frequency.) I would be happy to see some kind of cap on power up, and beasts getting a reduction in points cost to match. Alternatively, or in addition, I wouldn't be displeased to see you be able to spend Jack points on a marshalled warjack.
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spideredd
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Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 6, 2017 18:55:34 GMT
Im personally not that super impressed by the worst case redeemer scenario, because you cant boost and need to aim. Actually, they do have access to a focus in the form of Power Up from the Vassal, though that does take the module up to 18 points. As for aiming, I can hit my opponent with a lucky drift from a Redeemer at the bottom of one. If I go first and run, I can aim for the rest of the game, though the SR2017 terrain rules will mitigate this. Under pSevvy, anything with less than armour 20 is going to get dented It does an average of 9 damage from three rockets to ARM 20 without a boost, 12 to ARM 19 and 15 to ARM 18. The problem is that it outguns everything in faction. A Reckoner boosting damage under pSevvy will do 7 damage a turn to ARM20, 8 to ARM 19, 9 to ARM 18. A Judicator with one boost could do 15 damage to ARM20, 19 to ARM 19 and 23 to ARM 18, While these numbers look impressive, they need the Judicater to aim to hit a target within 8", which is less than it's charge range (9"), and it's still only RAT4 with the rockets when aiming, so is more likely to do far less. (at 14 ", it can do 11 damage, but again, the RAT is a problem, it's more likely to do 7) I've left out the secondary blasts because they have a small chance of doing any damage and can be considered outliers when they do. The fact that one module as described in my earlier post (ie without a Vassal) would nearly outgun the Judicator for far fewer points is the problem. Whether that's a problem with the Judicator or your proposed change remains to be seen. It's only the melee output of these two examples that set them apart from the Redeemer, but there are more efficient melee 'jacks in the Protectorate.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 19:03:29 GMT
I just wanted to note that you have to be vary careful about nerfing in the hope somebody picks up something else. That almost NEVER Happens.
I can see putting a Cap On Powerup Focus, but that doesn't necessarily make Marshalling an Attractive option.
I just not that a Marshal has to do so much stuff in order to be even considerable (The Forge Seer is arguably one of the Best, and he has to hand out empower, Blessed and ma(Salt Wheeler)i (Magic Weapon) weapon on top of what he already gives out), and Jr Warcasters still outclass them by a mile.
But I guess it can't be done quick and dirty then. It's a shame. I really want to make the MOW Kovnik work, but he just doesn't do enough.
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