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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 2, 2018 4:45:21 GMT
Firetrucking MORE effects that only target living models? Will they ever stop shitting on hordes?
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 4:44:35 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 2, 2018 4:44:35 GMT
As for unique things Chosen have going for them...They have rapid healing, yes (which is amazing), 8 boxes (directly synergizes with rapid healing and high arm), tough, and native pathfinder. That's way more than just rapid healing. I always hear people bring up pathfinder on the Chosen. Is there a Cav that DOESN'T have pathfinder out there? I'm pretty sure thats just the Cavalry standard. I feel like Rapid healing is only good BECAUSE of the high armor and boxes. Tough is kinda whatever. Really not that reliable. I will say, I saw absolutely no point in them gaining a point of defense. I thought they were fine where they were when they originally released. If you're worried about offensive output on them, take away brutal charge I guess (and possibly make it a flat 14?). Or lower their mount by a point or something. Pathfinder is definitely not standard for heavy cav, especially all-purpose pathfinder. I think only Bane Riders, Ferox, and now Chosen get it standard, and Uhlans get relentless charge (useful, but less useful when moving up the field). Considering my #1 suggestion was that the mount and weapon lose a point of POW, I'd be 100% fine with that change.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 23:51:16 GMT
Anyone else think chosen should simply drop to five boxes? I'd maybe drop the mount attack to POW 12 too. My friend, prepare to get dumped on from all directions for that suggestion. The changes I proposed were way more moderate, and check out the response I got lol.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 23:45:47 GMT
Looks at Denny1's feat reducing armor and def on all enemy models (thus buffing even non FFMs) while also sporting crippling grasp and parasite, looks at current proposal for K2. Yep ... you're just wrong Mr.Horde. Also keep in mind Khador has those forge guys for power booster now. Vlad can S&P and run native P+S19 jacks just fine thanks. Also the pot only gives corpes to one model per turn and moves at speed 5. That's hardly going to buff a unit of ravagers into broken territory now is it? Feats are supposed to be good. Let this one have an impact and K2 will actually start to see play. So you feel Kromac should be able to buff as well as the ultimate debuffer? Silly comparison. You're comparing a squishy support caster to kromac. To feat denny1 is putting herself in a good position to get assassinated. She also depends hard on arc-nodes to debuff, and can only debuff 2 targets max. One target the first time you get into range. Which is 8". Shes also spending 6 of 7 focus each time she changes targets. Which means her jacks are doing very little. Secondly ghost fleet base is trash compared to ravagers. After all her buffs are on they're hitting ONCE for the same as you want ravagers to hit feat turn charge. Didn't say the pot pushes them into broken. The pot allows them to make second attacks. At the very least you'll get 2 turns out of it for 2-6 tokens. Then add in your free tokens on theme. You'll easily be able to guarantee your ravagers are attacking 12 times on feat turn. Even its the same 2 ravagers buying extra attacks.And your ravager can change targets and keep doing this damage. Ghost fleet can't. You guys keep comparing feat buffs in armies that only attack once a turn. Khador heavier at native 19 aren't that big of a deal. We run warpwolfs at native 17 that out range and out attack the juggernaught. Throw primal on it and you've got 6 attacks at 19 at 10" pathfinder threat range and one attack at 18. Makes 4 Max attacks at 19 and one at 15 look like garbage no? Even with s&p you're talking 41 damage on the feral versus 36 if signs gives +2 damage on every roll. And that's not counting charge dice for the feral who out threats the khador vastly. And then throw in kromas feat, and there isn't a war jack or beast who stands a chance. And you want our infantry to do the same. If you don't think str+2 and mat+2 and arm +2 on some of the hardest hitting heavier in the game is impactful then I don't know what is. Kromacs negatives are clearly in his spell list. Where he does very little to deliver said beasts. Which is why I suggested putting war path or mobility on him for his buff. He definitely needs something, I just think his feat going ffm is too much. But again. Play test it. Let me know how it goes and what your opponent thought. If you're going to offer it up in the cid the data can only help. Ghost fleet don't die. That's the key, and what makes me question if you've even played into it. They come back turn after turn, and enjoy the insane swings Denny can pull every turn, with a crazy swing on Feat turn (up to 7 points of armor). That's why they're not great in terms of base stats. Replace GF with Banes, or Satyxis, or hell, that janky 5 leviathan list, and they're hitting waaay harder than ravagers ever could. Also, are..seriously comparing the power level of a feat that gives +2 strength and Armor, to a feat that reduces every relevant stat by 2? On top of CG? and parasite? Kromac2 would not even remotely be 'as good of a buffer as Denny1 is a debuffer' in the proposed hypothetical. Do you think Rasheth's feat is OP? It's -2 Arm, -2 Def, -2 strength...on a larger control area, so functionally very similar area to Kromac2's feat. It works on guns (Derp turtles!), it drops defense, and performs a very similar role to giving +2 Arm to FF models. Rasheth's not a combat presence, but his spell list is far superior to Kromac's, and he's similarly survivable. There are literally a dozen plus feats that give a far superior swing than the proposed Kromac2 feat - leaving aside the fact that number swing feats are most often not the most powerful feats in the game - on casters with much better spell lists. I can assure you, this would not even remotely break the game. It might make Kromac2 a presence in the meta, which is a damn good thing.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 18:54:07 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 18:54:07 GMT
Flat-out better is not hyperbole. It may be a (slight) exaggeration, in that they are not 'strictly' better than other cav, but it's also not wrong. They're much tougher than anything else, and do not pay much of a price in offense or mobility. What's hyperbole is the Legion players saying that 'this unit will be literally unplayable if they lose an Arm/1" reach/a point of strength. I've gone through this on the CID forums (where there was a point to it, as the devs were reading), I'm not getting into it again here (where it's pointless). The comparisons have been made, the games have been played, and the evidence is there. Chosen are slower than any other Cav out there. They also completely lack ranged attacks. The only other cavalry that also lack ranged attacks have access to abilities like ghostly, slams, magic attacks, etc. All extremely useful abilities from an offensive standpoint. The only thing that Chosen have going for them to make up for their lack of ranged weaponry is Rapid Healing: a great ability to be sure, however its only a delivery mechanism. It doesn't pose any sort of offensive capabilities whatsoever. Slams and Magic Weapons are both highly situational abilities. Useful in specific circumstances, but that's it. As for a more reasonable comparison... - (Heavy) Cav with ranged attacks - 2. 3 if you count druid mistriders (since they have Repo 3)...which I don't. of those, one has Rat 5, Pow 12 guns at range 8, which they only use when assaulting. The others have longer range guns, but are such a confusing mess of rules and role confusion that they never see play. - Heavy Cav without ranged attacks - 7. Chosen, Steelheads, Uhlans, Vengers, Bane Riders, Ferox, Long Riders. It's not at all standard for Cav to have ranged attacks, even rarer for those attacks to be a relevant part of their kit. As for unique things Chosen have going for them...They have rapid healing, yes (which is amazing), 8 boxes (directly synergizes with rapid healing and high arm), tough, and native pathfinder. That's way more than just rapid healing.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 4:46:36 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 4:46:36 GMT
You don't get to dictate who does and does not get to make arguments, and attacking the argument-maker rather than the argument is what's known as an ' ad hominem' - a logical fallacy, and also, y'know, generally a dick move. As far as experience goes, this is not a complex comparison to make, even with limited play experience (2 games into Chosen, if you must know, which I can't be arsed to write up for someone who won't directly engage with arguments being made). As much as you claim that I'm biased by playing factions that 'don't engage at range' (untrue, I also play retribution, currently), who seem to have an unhealthy fixation on the only relevant factor being the extent to which Chosen can survive the best shooting in the game. There are more factions that do not use primarily or exclusively gunlines than ones that do, and the fact that 'Thagrosh1 doesn't play into Nemo3' isn't a great deal of comfort to the Troll player, or the Minions player, or, yes, the Circle player. That's why it's relevant. If you want me to dig up some other stats, though...even at ARM 19, it takes boosted pow 12s to put 1 damage onto the Chosen. Boosted Pow 12s, at range, are not common fare in most factions, and are still a horribly inefficient way to kill Chosen. It takes a boosted POW 17 to one-shot a Chosen, on average (or at least force a tough check), and I don't know where you're finding those outside of a very few battle engines and single-shot warbeasts with caster support. And by 'you don't get to', what I of course mean, is that you CAN criticize my arguments, but you're already doing so from a glass house of your own making. So I don't feel any particular need to defend my arguments against someone who already has proven that they can't defend theirs. And no, you're still miles off from the problem with Thagrosh1 and chosen. I ask for battle reports because I sincerely doubt anyone has played into that match-up and had anywhere remotely as much trouble with them as with other warlocks, like Anamag. There are a lot of very steep limitations to Thagrosh1 and Kallus1's bubbles that are even more restrictive to fast units. If you can personally cite exceptions to this, I would love to see them. Otherwise I'm not convinced they exist, because conventional wisdom suggests they shouldn't, and nothing here has suggested otherwise either. And you can cite other stats if you want. I'm not going to say ARM19 chosen AREN'T durable, they most certainly are. But they aren't overpowered. See, what's funny here, is that you're not actually making arguments, you're asserting a (highly subjective) viewpoint, that Chosen are not 'overpowered.' You haven't provided a single compelling argument or unit comparison to show that Chosen are not comparatively more powerful than other Cavalry. Other people have provided the stats for the comparison, and macdaddy has played tons of games (he's lucky enough to have more than one legion player in his meta, I guess), but your response has been to: - attack the people making the arguments (lack of experience, faction bias, lack of context) - provide alternative scenarios every time the last proposed scenario doesn't hold up to analysis, shifting the goalposts - continue to make highly subjective assertions (strong but not overpowered, not viable with X) that are too broad to be properly rebutted. From a logical standpoint, you're loafing. I'm honestly getting flashbacks to that one Black Fleet CID battle report - I'm sure macdaddy remembers the one - where numerous Cryx players engaged in very similar argumentative tactics. It was exhausting then, and it's exhausting now.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 4:30:20 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 4:30:20 GMT
I have played Cygnar quite extensively, thank you very much. And I played Legion (albeit less extensively) in Mk2. But sure, let's pretend comparing faction cred is even remotely relevant to this discussion. As for assaulting stormlances outranging Chosen...lol. Just...lol. POW 12 shots are going to do Firetruck all to buffed chosen. Even under Nemo's feat turn...with a firefly nearby...the Stormlances are each doing 1 damage to the Chosen after rapid healing. They are then in easy charge range of the Chosen on the next turn. Also, what was that about not wanting Chosen to be durable enough to survive Nemo3? Because as I've said many times, PT is a textbook example of a theme that NEVER wants to play into Nemo3, period. I don't care how durable you make Chosen, they cannot be durable enough to survive Nemo3 without being way TOO durable for the rest of the game. As for my point...the point is that anything in this game can be killed. If it takes an entire armies' shooting, bad positioning by the Legion player, and a 20 point armor cracking unit to kill Chosen...they're DAMN tough. They should not be this tough, and also have a damage output and level of mobility that is only slightly below other (highly played) heavy cavalry models. I seriously have no idea how you're disputing this. The arguments keep getting worse and worse. It was less 'faction cred' and more faction perspective. You have a rather inaccurate perspective on the armor buffs from Kallus1 and Thagrosh1. From the perspective of a faction that doesn't really engage at range, that would at least be understandable. And the only time it takes a whole army of shooting to kill chosen is.... *drumroll* Anamag and Fyanna2. How many times does this need to keep coming up? With one caster they're a problem. With another caster they potentially have similar problems, but not bad enough for players to take issue. Everywhere else they're not a problem. You've so far failed to actually prove this false, instead driving off into a tangent of specifically-stormlances-vs-chosen, which I even said wasn't the point. Problem when taken with Anamag. Not much of a problem anywhere else. That should tell you something. It tells me that they're not the problem in that combo. The reason why this kind of talk in CID was completely ridiculous and had to be called out in the week3 rules is because the sorts of nerfs and whinging players were tossing around would have basically made Chosen 'strong' with anamag 'good' with Fyanna and 'maybe okay' everywhere else. Sorry, but I don't want our new cavalry unit to be only playable under 2-4 casters. I'll take Chosen playable across many casters over an overpowered new warlock. Weirdly PP gave us both, and it's really unfortunate. And as someone who shut up real fast when asked to provide any kind of proof to support your claims, you don't get to criticize other people's arguments. You don't get to dictate who does and does not get to make arguments, and attacking the argument-maker rather than the argument is what's known as an ' ad hominem' - a logical fallacy, and also, y'know, generally a dick move. As far as experience goes, this is not a complex comparison to make, even with limited play experience (2 games into Chosen, if you must know, which I can't be arsed to write up for someone who won't directly engage with arguments being made). As much as you claim that I'm biased by playing factions that 'don't engage at range' (untrue, I also play retribution, currently), you seem to have an unhealthy fixation on the only relevant factor being the extent to which Chosen can survive the best shooting in the game. There are more factions that do not use primarily or exclusively gunlines than ones that do, and the fact that 'Thagrosh1 doesn't play into Nemo3' isn't a great deal of comfort to the Troll player, or the Minions player, or, yes, the Circle player. That's why it's relevant. If you want me to dig up some other stats, though...even at ARM 19, it takes boosted pow 12s to put 1 damage onto the Chosen. Boosted Pow 12s, at range, are not common fare in most factions, and are still a horribly inefficient way to kill Chosen. It takes a boosted POW 17 to one-shot a Chosen, on average (or at least force a tough check), and I don't know where you're finding those outside of a very few battle engines and single-shot warbeasts with caster support.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 4:19:27 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 4:19:27 GMT
Lanz you can read my reports by checking the CiD forums Wold Wyrds at dice off 5 with 2 Boosted Damage rolls will do 4-6 Damage after rapid Healing. Meaning if you don’t spike and the legion player rolls average rapid Healing you fail to kill a chisen with a wyrd and then die in retaliation. Yeah I know Wyrds are good, I use them a lot. I play other factions than circle, Protectorate and dabbling in trolls here and there. Both of which are very different from Circle. But let’s be honest, Cygnar tactics don’t exactly take a lot of practice to figure out... I’m not looking at chosen from a “darn they counter circle hard” perspective. I’m looking at them from a “huh those are cool Cav but I think they overpreform” perspective. Oncoming and I both are putting forth reasonable arguments here and You keep switching the topic when we make a solid counterpoint. to be completely fair, a wyrd will statistically trigger a tough check after 2 boosted shots into Arm 21 Chosen (dice off 9) Shot one does ~5 damage, chosen heals average 2, leaving 5 boxes. Shot two does ~5 damage, chosen makes tough check. That's on average, and the swingy nature of rapid healing makes averages really hard to rely on. I would guess that, on average, 3 shots from a wyrd will put down a Chosen, accounting for the swinginess of rolling many dice for the wyrd, rapid healing, and tough checks. But that's just a guess, as figuring out the math for that many rolls would take more effort than I'm willing to put into this. BUT, that's a 9 point warbeast that just spent it's entire activation probably killing a 4 point model, under the most ideal circumstances imaginable, and is now sitting in retaliation range of the other models in the unit. It gets a bit better if you add wraithbane (but then why is the Legion player using the Arm buff on the chosen at that point) - each shot averages 7 damage, meaning about 35% of the time you're triggering a tough check from a single shot...so you might get two Chosen with a wyrd. Again, though, 9 point model, ideal circumstances, with a buff from a 17 point model.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 4:00:25 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 4:00:25 GMT
1. what are you shooting at the chosen with in order to soften them up? Sounds to me like a whole lot more output than just a single 20 point unit. Keep in mind, you need a boosted Pow 14 shot to average 1 point of damage on a Chosen under BB aura with an armor buff. Those don't grow on trees, not even in Cygnar. 2. Do I really need to point out the absurdity that is calling someone out for excessive theorymachine, then claiming that +1 speed means that you're always going to get a perfect 5-on-5 alpha on Chosen? As I've said elsewhere, if the Legion player derps his Chosen into perfect range and formation to get alpha'd perfectly by an armor-cracking unit (with ranged support!) you deserve to lose some chosen. Why aren't the Chosen running to engage this hypothetical gunline-cum-cav list? Even if they have to outrun the BB aura, Stormlances aren't hurting Arm 19 Chosen with non-charge attacks on average, while Chosen ARE doing more reliable damage (thanks to the mount attack) into even AS'd Storm Lances. Why aren't you jamming the Storm lances with Rotwings to set up for a charge with the Chosen next turn? Even in the extreme case, where neither of these options are available to you...why aren't you positioning your Chosen such that the opponent can only get charges on 2 or so of them? As for their guns...their terrifying, Rng 8, Rat 5, Pow 12 guns (with no electro-leap)...need I really say more? Since the nerf, I've never seen Storm Lances choose to fire their guns instead of assaulting. It's just not worthwhile. chillychinaman - where your analysis starts to fall apart really is in assuming no charges, because Chosen A) outthreat warpwolves and B) get waaay more out of the charge than a warpwolf does (in fact, a warpwolf gets literally no benefit out of a charge, unless we're including hunters' mark or some such.) A more realistic scenario, even if we're giving the warpwolf the alpha (which I'll grant, a good Circle player will often get), is that the warpwolf charges and is able to get two chosen in melee range. The stalker kills the two chosen, then is charged by the remaining 3...and the stalker is, quite frankly, the best answer Circle has to bricks. Part of that is Circle not being in a great place CID-cycle wise, sure. But I don't expect a ton to change there (probably a points drop, given the legion CID). 1: Way more than 20 points. What's your point? It's not like a PT list is going to be firing back a whole lot. Even with 'running to engage', assaulting stormlances still out-range that at 19" vs 16". Throw dynamo into the mix with Nemo3 and you have a party. 2: And it's so much LESS absurd to be counter-theorymachining that a threat range advantage and shooting advantage in a shooting faction isn't going to matter because-tactics. Like both players don't get those? 3: Do you play either of these factions? Or are you and macdaddy both just circle players? I can understand circle being miffed about chosen, lacking much in the way of shooting to counter them. Of course, woldwyrds average 5dmg per shot on them before excessive regeneration, and I'm told woldwyrds are good or something like that. And again, I said that chosen aren't the problem, Anamag is. Fyanna2 doesn't make them nearly as powerful and hasn't produced any table-flips in the battle reports. If Anamag didn't have her +2 ARM buff (or if it didn't work on chosen for whatever reason), I doubt we'd even be talking about this. I have played Cygnar quite extensively, thank you very much. And I played Legion (albeit less extensively) in Mk2. But sure, let's pretend comparing faction cred is even remotely relevant to this discussion. As for assaulting stormlances outranging Chosen...lol. Just...lol. POW 12 shots are going to do Firetruck all to buffed chosen. Even under Nemo's feat turn...with a firefly nearby...the Stormlances are each doing 1 damage to the Chosen after rapid healing. They are then in easy charge range of the Chosen on the next turn. Also, what was that about not wanting Chosen to be durable enough to survive Nemo3? Because as I've said many times, PT is a textbook example of a theme that NEVER wants to play into Nemo3, period. I don't care how durable you make Chosen, they cannot be durable enough to survive Nemo3 without being way TOO durable for the rest of the game. As for my point...the point is that anything in this game can be killed. If it takes an entire armies' shooting, bad positioning by the Legion player, and a 20 point armor cracking unit to kill Chosen...they're DAMN tough. They should not be this tough, and also have a damage output and level of mobility that is only slightly below other (highly played) heavy cavalry models. I seriously have no idea how you're disputing this. The arguments keep getting worse and worse.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 3:16:05 GMT
Lanz Arcane shield is comparable to FF legion caster buffs.so no, not exactly better. Chosen don’t deliver an alpha. They take something like lances in the chin and laugh at them. Pow 16 boosted on an arm 19 chosen doesn’t grantee a kill especially with tough. The mount attack and leap are pretty much useless. Chosen on the other hand, will eventually win a grind mathematically even after face taking a lance charge. You can build a strategy with chosen too. PT is all about AXE TO FACE Rraaawwwrrr. Edit for snarky ness . Also sorry Cryptix I promise I didn’t start it Except that stormlances aren't going to just charge into chosen off the cuff because any decent cygnar player will soften them up at range first before charging in, and Cygnar does this exceptionally well, even against heavies. Their +1 spd, additionally, ensures that once the chosen ARE softened up, the lances get the first say in the matter, and potentially the last word if the chosen have taken enough damage already. Dead chosen don't get to make a lot of attacks in retaliation. And I shouldn't have to explain any of this. I don't know why you're not factoring this already unless you're choosing not to. edit: And the point wasn't to compare stormlances VERSUS chosen specifically, either. 1. what are you shooting at the chosen with in order to soften them up? Sounds to me like a whole lot more output than just a single 20 point unit. Keep in mind, you need a boosted Pow 14 shot to average 1 point of damage on a Chosen under BB aura with an armor buff. Those don't grow on trees, not even in Cygnar. 2. Do I really need to point out the absurdity that is calling someone out for excessive theorymachine, then claiming that +1 speed means that you're always going to get a perfect 5-on-5 alpha on Chosen? As I've said elsewhere, if the Legion player derps his Chosen into perfect range and formation to get alpha'd perfectly by an armor-cracking unit (with ranged support!) you deserve to lose some chosen. Why aren't the Chosen running to engage this hypothetical gunline-cum-cav list? Even if they have to outrun the BB aura, Stormlances aren't hurting Arm 19 Chosen with non-charge attacks on average, while Chosen ARE doing more reliable damage (thanks to the mount attack) into even AS'd Storm Lances. Why aren't you jamming the Storm lances with Rotwings to set up for a charge with the Chosen next turn? Even in the extreme case, where neither of these options are available to you...why aren't you positioning your Chosen such that the opponent can only get charges on 2 or so of them? As for their guns...their terrifying, Rng 8, Rat 5, Pow 12 guns (with no electro-leap)...need I really say more? Since the nerf, I've never seen Storm Lances choose to fire their guns instead of assaulting. It's just not worthwhile. chillychinaman - where your analysis starts to fall apart really is in assuming no charges, because Chosen A) outthreat warpwolves and B) get waaay more out of the charge than a warpwolf does (in fact, a warpwolf gets literally no benefit out of a charge, unless we're including hunters' mark or some such.) A more realistic scenario, even if we're giving the warpwolf the alpha (which I'll grant, a good Circle player will often get), is that the warpwolf charges and is able to get two chosen in melee range. The stalker kills the two chosen, then is charged by the remaining 3...and the stalker is, quite frankly, the best answer Circle has to bricks. Part of that is Circle not being in a great place CID-cycle wise, sure. But I don't expect a ton to change there (probably a points drop, given the legion CID).
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 1:49:34 GMT
You're talking about buffing one or two units at a time versus your entire army. War Spears are 5 units at 13 power. With UA that's 15 on prey. With the right caster +2 str buff that's 17 power. On feat turn your bloodtrackers would be power 13 PLUS weapon master, and double the amount of war Spears no UA needed. Your units of 4-6 ravager a can hit for 15 power multiple times depending on corpse tokens. With the ability to boost said attacks too. That's your infantry hitting multiple times at warbeast damage. Signs and portents is completely dice based. Where as this would be a consistent buff. And you can't just disregard armor on a 5 health tough unit. And again, this assumes the ravager isn't touched in the cid. If we get brutal charge back like many want, you're 17 damage on the charge. Add in the croc pot for free attacks and your units will slaughter. All this on top of the dangerous damage our beasts would be doing too. Neither of the 2 casters with signs and portents has the beast ability we do. The khador caster spending half+ his focus on signs a turn is doing nothing with the slow moving khador jacks. And the gator man caster has nothing that moves as fast/as well and hits as hard as we do. All this is ignoring the +2 mat carnage brings too. You can try to sell it come cid time but I highly doubt anyone buys it. Okay, so... Most lists don't need to bring more than 2-3 units. It's rare that more than 2 units are in a position to effectively use melee buffs in a relevant way on a given turn. Warspears are 19 under the B aura. They're also relatively cheap at 15 points. Really? Rockets on Butcher1 feat turn are okay, but Ravagers at PS 15/maybe 17 aren't? Ravagers are only getting extra attacks into infantry (specifically, living or undead infantry, which matters into COC and Skorne). Infantry which they already massacre at P+S 13. Even if they have corpses saved up, AND got brutal charge in CID, they'd only be hitting at P+S 17 on the charge attack. Any bought attacks would be P+S 15. Terrifying, I'm sure. Dude, signs and portents doesn't care about speed. Rockets are Speed 6, Range 14, POW 12 brutal damage. That's better, longer ranged output than anything our infantry bring to the faction. Even in minions, Posse are as fast as Tharn (faster on the charge against living warriors) and hit just as hard. Croak raiders can be P+S 11 S+P weaponmasters with the same threat range as Bloodtrackers into their prey target.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 1:37:42 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 1:37:42 GMT
oncomingstorm and macdaddy Just for discussion's sake, assuming Rapid Healing and preferably 8boxes are retained, how would you balance Chosen and why? And assuming they exit the CID as they last were, how would it affect your list building? What new tech would you now require to address this them? In rough order of preference? Option 1: loss of 1 Pow from the polearm OR 1 pow from both the polearm and the mount attack Option 2: take reach down to 1" to make them more of a counterpunch unit Option 3: remove tough, to allow high quality attacks to at least reliably remove them. In order to counter them as they are now, in Circle I'd need actual hard hitting infantry that stand a hope in hell of removing them on a charge (Circle currently has literally no infantry that can do this, probably by design), 2" reach, Mat 7 warbeasts with higher Pow than our current warpwolves (so basically a skin and moans) and/or some serious control tools to hold them up from just jamming themselves into the centre of my lines and being nigh-unremovable. Currently, the only thing in Circle that is decent at removing Chosen is a Primalled, Strength-buffed warpwolf stalker. Which still gets out-threated by Chosen. and costs as much as Chosen. And STILL will only remove 3 of them on average. And gets murdered by charging Chosen, because defense 14 means jack shit in this edition.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 1:23:58 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 1:23:58 GMT
Yup. Letting your chosen take the alpha and counterpunch is a terrible idea. totally. Even though they're basically built to be able to do that, while also threatening an alpha into slower lists. Almost seems like... flexibility. Also, keeping them within 12" of your caster. Totally unworkable and never gonna happen. Not even when said caster is relatively tanky and has a Huge base to put between them and the enemy...not to mention the obligatory LOS-blocking terrain in the centre of the table. I don't doubt we'll MOSTLY see them in the tournament context with Anamag and Fyanna. That doesn't make Thag1 and Kallus1 irrelevant. That doesn't look like a battle report. I really don't care much about convincing you, as you're clearly irrevocably biased on the matter.
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 1:16:59 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 1:16:59 GMT
Lanz - That is 5 casters that can get their arm to 21, thank you very much. You're discounting 3 casters on EXTREMELY dubious grounds. Not every faction is capable (or should HAVE TO) muster an extremely powerful gunline (capable of removing ARM 19 Chosen under a BB aura). Jamming Arm 21 Chosen into the enemy is a perfectly viable strategy...just not into Cygnar. Also, even if it's JUST two casters (doubtful), that itself highlights that it is not a problem strictly with Anamag. Especially when those two casters are an unreleased caster who looks to be extremely strong in general, and a caster who is already top-tier in Legion. Battle report, or we're done here. Including Kallus1 and Thagrosh1 with Anamag and Fyanna2 is laughable to the point of not being worth arguing against unless you can actually prove a legitimate case of it happening, because I can't think of any scenarios where Chosen are going to get those benefits without either A) basically giving up their speed advantage, or B) overextending your caster and putting them in a very compromising position. (And guess what? Trolls can do all that with long riders, too) Yup. Letting your chosen take the alpha and counterpunch is a terrible idea. totally. Even though they're basically built to be able to do that, while also threatening an alpha into slower lists. Almost seems like... flexibility. Also, keeping them within 12" of your caster. Totally unworkable and never gonna happen. Not even when said caster is relatively tanky and has a Huge base to put between them and the enemy...not to mention the obligatory LOS-blocking terrain in the centre of the table. I don't doubt we'll MOSTLY see them in the tournament context with Anamag and Fyanna. That doesn't make Thag1 and Kallus1 irrelevant. chillychinaman - if you're bunching your Chosen such that they can all be attacked and killed by an average 15 point heavy, you deserve to lose them. And hell, even then, if they're buffed...you probably won't lose them. Not many heavies can put out 8+ P+S 22+ attacks. A buffed-to-the-teeth Skin and Moans is the only one I can think of, off the cuff. If you're losing a bunch of chosen to a 15 point unit, that unit is almost certainly slower weaponmasters. And even then, a unit of charging sentinels into Arm 21 Chosen only kills 3 of them on average. (PS 12, 4 dice = 26 average, so 3 damage after healing...average 2-3 attacks to trigger a tough check, 1/3 will require an additional attack, and 18% will miss (hitting on 5s)...and what the hell are you doing getting your speed 7 Chosen charged by a whole unit of Sentinels?
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Cid
Feb 1, 2018 1:10:43 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 1:10:43 GMT
How was my statement biased? If anything your just as if not more biased than I am. Because 'flat out better' strictly ignores a whole spectrum of scenarios and faction quirks that can make other cavalry stand out in their element. Your bias is that you're ignoring that to focus on one strength and declare something 'flat out better' on that strength alone. Ignoring the inflexibility of the unit, ignoring their low SPD for cavalry. They have no guns, they can't impact the battle without getting locked into it. Legion has very few unit-wide speed buffs (basically just Rhyas). They're better in some situations, they're worse in others. The statement that they are objectively better is a biased statement. Same speed as long riders. objectively tougher. Higher pow weapons and native pathfinder. Slightly slower than Uhlans, but no lance rule (so they can jam effectively, unlike Uhlans). MUCH tougher. Hit nearly as hard on the charge (as hard if you get the mount attack). Native pathfinder. Slightly slower than Storm Lances. Hit slightly less hard on the charge, though the mount balances that slightly. WAY tougher. Native pathfinder. Not gonna compare them to Ferox because Ferox are a very different unit play-wise, and also IMO are on a list of 'models that should be nerfed for the health of the game.' They're more flexible than most cavalry, because they still hit hard when they get stuck in. They're more flexible than most cavalry, because they have native pathfinder. They have 1 less speed than the fastest heavy cavalry, and (like all heavy cav) have Repo 3 (I was very surprised to see this, personally, but eh). I have no idea where you're getting 'inflexible' from regarding this unit.
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