luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163 
|
Post by luckgod84 on Jun 24, 2021 19:39:24 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by MacGuffin on Jun 24, 2021 20:35:05 GMT
Excellent write-up, agreed on all points. Especially as to Thunderhead. Dual attack would have been an easy and effective improvement. Hard to believe they didn't do it.
But otherwise a great update to the models in theme.
|
|
|
|
Post by darkangeldentist on Jun 24, 2021 21:45:06 GMT
By and large a good write up with good points. Your piece mentioned Acosta going up a point of ARM to 16 but looking at the article I didn't spot that even on re-reading.
My own disappointments are focused on those models that were missed. Brickhouse and Dynamo also desperately needed looking at in my view as well but there was no mention. That stung. I'm (perhaps oddly given my last thread on this forum) quite satisfied on the whole over the changes that we got. The avenger is a solid concept, it may still not be good enough to appear in many lists but I will be looking at it again, same with the defender and thunderhead (agree with you so much that dual attack would have been so deserved and good that it) and the centurion was a bit of a surprise given how often I've seen them in lists and generally talked about as one of the best jacks in Cygnar.
Still unhappy about a lot of Cygnar jacks but the ones they've looked at, at least they made them cheaper.
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 24, 2021 21:59:45 GMT
Excellent write-up, agreed on all points. Especially as to Thunderhead. Dual attack would have been an easy and effective improvement. Hard to believe they didn't do it. But otherwise a great update to the models in theme. The Thunderhead can’t have Dual Attack for the same reason the Suppression Tanker can’t have Dual Attack: the ridiculous long-range assassination vectors. (Actually the Suppression Tanker’s assassination threat was overblown, while the Thunderhead’s auto-hitting lighting guns would be much worse, but who’s counting?  ) See, for example: calculate the Thunderhead’s threat range on Jakes1 in an army led by Beth Maddox. |
|
luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
|
Post by luckgod84 on Jun 24, 2021 22:00:09 GMT
Good catch. Edited
|
|
luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
|
Post by luckgod84 on Jun 24, 2021 22:00:43 GMT
Excellent write-up, agreed on all points. Especially as to Thunderhead. Dual attack would have been an easy and effective improvement. Hard to believe they didn't do it. But otherwise a great update to the models in theme. The Thunderhead can’t have Dual Attack for the same reason the Suppression Tanker can’t have Dual Attack: the ridiculous long-range assassination vectors. (Actually the Suppression Tanker’s assassination threat was overblown, while the Thunderhead’s auto-hitting lighting guns would be much worse, but who’s counting? ) Gunfighter would be fine though |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 24, 2021 22:04:50 GMT
Gunfighter would be fine though Gunfighter and Energy Pulse gets real weird real fast. You’d have about 14 Tactical Tips and three hundred rules forum threads added in no time. |
|
|
|
Post by darkangeldentist on Jun 24, 2021 22:33:07 GMT
Excellent write-up, agreed on all points. Especially as to Thunderhead. Dual attack would have been an easy and effective improvement. Hard to believe they didn't do it. But otherwise a great update to the models in theme. The Thunderhead can’t have Dual Attack for the same reason the Suppression Tanker can’t have Dual Attack: the ridiculous long-range assassination vectors. (Actually the Suppression Tanker’s assassination threat was overblown, while the Thunderhead’s auto-hitting lighting guns would be much worse, but who’s counting? ) See, for example: calculate the Thunderhead’s threat range on Jakes1 in an army led by Beth Maddox. The argument for the Thunderhead and dual attack became a thing when the Storm raptor got a better version of Thunderhead's gun. (Base range 14 on a SPD 7 model.) That gargantuan can threaten 21" with it's gun, not caring if it gets into melee or not. It has access to 4 boosts and the option to buff it's ranged damage output via its animus. With dual attack thunderhead would threaten 18", 3" less than the raptor and both factions have ways to increase that base threat. Your example with Jake1 with Beth Maddox achieves a total threat range of 24" (26" if you really stretch and manage a hunter's mark from Lanyssa), that's long and the storm raptor can only manage 23" with Una2 but there's also Una1 who can due to bird's eye ignore intervening models, clouds and forests with a 21" threat. Which is arguably even more horrendous due to how difficult it is to prevent. That the storm raptor is a colossal isn't of much consequence when the basis of your argument was the base threat range. |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 25, 2021 0:44:48 GMT
The Thunderhead can’t have Dual Attack for the same reason the Suppression Tanker can’t have Dual Attack: the ridiculous long-range assassination vectors. (Actually the Suppression Tanker’s assassination threat was overblown, while the Thunderhead’s auto-hitting lighting guns would be much worse, but who’s counting? ) See, for example: calculate the Thunderhead’s threat range on Jakes1 in an army led by Beth Maddox. The argument for the Thunderhead and dual attack became a thing when the Storm raptor got a better version of Thunderhead's gun. (Base range 14 on a SPD 7 model.) That gargantuan can threaten 21" with it's gun, not caring if it gets into melee or not. It has access to 4 boosts and the option to buff it's ranged damage output via its animus. With dual attack thunderhead would threaten 18", 3" less than the raptor and both factions have ways to increase that base threat. Your example with Jake1 with Beth Maddox achieves a total threat range of 24" (26" if you really stretch and manage a hunter's mark from Lanyssa), that's long and the storm raptor can only manage 23" with Una2 but there's also Una1 who can due to bird's eye ignore intervening models, clouds and forests with a 21" threat. Which is arguably even more horrendous due to how difficult it is to prevent. That the storm raptor is a colossal isn't of much consequence when the basis of your argument was the base threat range. Two points, or maybe more by the time I finish: 1) The Storm Raptor is still a total pain to play against for the very reason of that ridiculous gun. It can very easily create a “Whoops I assassinated your caster” moment. 2) The fact that the Storm Raptor has a huge base is not trivial. That does somewhat limit its movement options in practice. 3) The Storm Raptor costs just shy of twice as much as the Thunderhead, with all the repercussions that entails. 4) The Storm Raptor does not have Dual Attack. There is a world of difference between the Storm Raptor shooting three times and a charging Dual Attack P+S 18, P+S 18, Lighting Coil, + any number of combination of bought Sustained Attack follow-up attacks. Plus Dual Attack with * Attack ranged weapons immediately dives into weird rules territory. And by “weird” I mean “I bet you can’t tell me how it actually functions off the top of your head, without double-checking multiple pages of rules to get it right.”  But, you know? It doesn’t matter! Because ol’ Thunderhead doesn’t have Dual Attack! And anyway: be happy your Apotheosis character jack doesn’t cost 25 points! |
|
|
|
Post by darkangeldentist on Jun 25, 2021 8:19:00 GMT
The argument for the Thunderhead and dual attack became a thing when the Storm raptor got a better version of Thunderhead's gun. (Base range 14 on a SPD 7 model.) That gargantuan can threaten 21" with it's gun, not caring if it gets into melee or not. It has access to 4 boosts and the option to buff it's ranged damage output via its animus. With dual attack thunderhead would threaten 18", 3" less than the raptor and both factions have ways to increase that base threat. Your example with Jake1 with Beth Maddox achieves a total threat range of 24" (26" if you really stretch and manage a hunter's mark from Lanyssa), that's long and the storm raptor can only manage 23" with Una2 but there's also Una1 who can due to bird's eye ignore intervening models, clouds and forests with a 21" threat. Which is arguably even more horrendous due to how difficult it is to prevent. That the storm raptor is a colossal isn't of much consequence when the basis of your argument was the base threat range. Two points, or maybe more by the time I finish: 1) The Storm Raptor is still a total pain to play against for the very reason of that ridiculous gun. It can very easily create a “Whoops I assassinated your caster” moment. 2) The fact that the Storm Raptor has a huge base is not trivial. That does somewhat limit its movement options in practice. 3) The Storm Raptor costs just shy of twice as much as the Thunderhead, with all the repercussions that entails. 4) The Storm Raptor does not have Dual Attack. There is a world of difference between the Storm Raptor shooting three times and a charging Dual Attack P+S 18, P+S 18, Lighting Coil, + any number of combination of bought Sustained Attack follow-up attacks. Plus Dual Attack with * Attack ranged weapons immediately dives into weird rules territory. And by “weird” I mean “I bet you can’t tell me how it actually functions off the top of your head, without double-checking multiple pages of rules to get it right.” But, you know? It doesn’t matter! Because ol’ Thunderhead doesn’t have Dual Attack! And anyway: be happy your Apotheosis character jack doesn’t cost 25 points! Your choice of words invites some very antagonistic interpretation. My post was not a direct advocation for Thunderhead getting dual attack but attempting explanation why people would like to see it. Extreme threat ranges with incredibly hard to prevent vectors have been a thing for ages and it doesn't make the game fun. It is less fun for those who don't have similar levels of bullshit though so an argument based around "You can't have this because it would be busted" holds little water when very similar crap exists in other factions. In end though, you're right, this doesn't matter Thunderhead doesn't have dual attack and the update has already dropped. I'll settle for what's been given and when I eventually get around to playing regularly again I'll see where things stand. Thunderhead is now a much better looking option than before. Rather than derail this thread please message me to explain what you do think Behemoth should cost and do. |
|
|
|
Post by MacGuffin on Jun 25, 2021 18:15:07 GMT
Let me explain my comment about the Thunderhead, and add a comment about Behemoth. The TLDR is that the Storm Division update on the whole is really great, but the failure to update Thunderhead meaningfully is a massive disappointment.
Behemoth is a beautiful model that is slightly behind the curve for its points. A points drop would encourage players to use it. Thunderhead is a beautiful model that turns into a paperweight when engaged. A points drop will not change that fact, nor will a slight bump in its melee P+S. Accordingly, we will *never* see Thunderhead on the table now, certainly not in competitive play. I own both a Khador army and a Cygnar army, and while I own the Behemoth, I have no plans to buy the Thunderhead.
I am disappointed because PP ought to know better. The Crucible Guard CID devs seemed to understand that people don't play warjacks unless they can massively overcome their inherent shortcomings (losing systems, requiring focus to do things that other models do inherently, like charging), and they improved their warjacks accordingly with the truly spectacular Cutting Edge benefit (among other improvements). Specifically, they said something to the effect of "the Suppressor is a primarily ranged warjack that likes to get close and spray," and they gave it shooting gallery as a result. I wonder if there's another primarily ranged warjack that likes to get close and fire off its gun? Maybe the Thunderhead? The Suppressor only functions because it has dual attack, and the Thunderhead is no different. As DADentist said above, there's already a model in this game that can pulse in melee, and it's not game-breaking. Why the disparate treatment?
The real oddity of this whole thing is that character warjacks can't be spammed, and therefore are unlikely to become abusive if they are slightly ahead of the curve. PP should turn up all of their character warjacks to 11, just so maybe we could see them on the table, instead of a sea of cheap jacks, battle engines, and/or infantrymachine. This includes Black Ivan, Drago, Torch, and yes, Thunderhead!
None of this should take away from the genuine awesomeness of the Storm Division update. It's great, not OP, it's just right. But I'm bummed about the Thunderhead. Honestly, I was kind of hoping the Thunderhead would switch guns with the Storm Strider so we wouldn't have to get into this dual attack argument, but here we are.
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 25, 2021 18:32:37 GMT
Behemoth is a topic for another day. Character warjacks turned to 11 happened last edition. The result was that we saw character warjacks used almost exclusively over everything else, with a few exceptions. Allowing the Thunderhead to make ranged attacks in melee is very different than allowing the Storm Raptor to do it. Simply put, the Thunderhead can reach places a huge base cannot. You really have to be careful with auto-hitting attacks. Ask somebody who ever fought against Skarre1 in MK I how they feel about auto-hitting attacks sometime. |
|
|
|
Post by darkangeldentist on Jun 25, 2021 19:05:15 GMT
Behemoth is a topic for another day. Character warjacks turned to 11 happened last edition. The result was that we saw character warjacks used almost exclusively over everything else, with a few exceptions. Allowing the Thunderhead to make ranged attacks in melee is very different than allowing the Storm Raptor to do it. Simply put, the Thunderhead can reach places a huge base cannot. You really have to be careful with auto-hitting attacks. Ask somebody who ever fought against Skarre1 in MK I how they feel about auto-hitting attacks sometime. micheal, you appear to be trolling at this point. I would take behemoth if I played Khador, if I could take it in Cygnar I would too because it brings good ranged presence and excellent melee power in a single tough package. (36 boxes and ARM 20 looks amazing if you are used to 30 boxes at ARM 18.) However this highlights the gulf between our perspectives. When I started a thread on asking about whether Cygnar jacks were over-costed you made comments that they weren't and took a position that they were fine. This update made a statement that several of the jacks were over-costed and have now been reduced in price. How do you feel about these changes? |
|
|
|
Post by MacGuffin on Jun 25, 2021 23:32:51 GMT
Character warjacks turned to 11 happened last edition. The result was that we saw character warjacks used almost exclusively over everything else, with a few exceptions. Allowing the Thunderhead to make ranged attacks in melee is very different than allowing the Storm Raptor to do it. Simply put, the Thunderhead can reach places a huge base cannot. You really have to be careful with auto-hitting attacks. Ask somebody who ever fought against Skarre1 in MK I how they feel about auto-hitting attacks sometime. I agree that caution is warranted, but I'm baffled that the dev notes describe extending the range of the Thunderhead's gun (which literally nobody ever suggested) instead of at least saying "we tried adding dual attack and the Thunderhead was able to get into places that the Storm Raptor could not, which is why the Thunderhead cannot have dual attack while the Storm Raptor can." I'm not disappointed that they didn't add dual attack, I'm disappointed that they apparently never thought of it, while literally everyone else discussed it ever since the Storm Raptor came out. Maybe you're right, but it would have been nice for the devs to consider it. As for MK2 character warjacks, keep in mind that warjacks didn't have power-up in MK2, so (as I understand it) there was never an incentive to run lots of jacks, because you couldn't fuel them. You'd include one or two to fill out your WJ points, and those two had to be good, i.e., characters. I don't think you'd see the same outcome now with themes (which limit character warjacks) and power-up (which encourages larger battlegroups and/or more light/cheap warjacks). I only started after MK3, but I've never seen Black Ivan, Drago, Torch, or Thunderhead on a table, ever. Which sucks because, again, the Thunderhead is the best looking model in the game, or maybe a close second after Behemoth. |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 26, 2021 12:04:44 GMT
Two things, because I still don’t have time for in-depth replies: 1) The comment about “extending the range … / …nobody even considered Dual Attack…” is just not based in reality. The published dev notes are only the briefest, most effervescent look into the design process. The team discusses hosts of ideas, try them out in real games, and tweak and refine. We don’t know what they tested. 2) It just so happens that Drago, Torch, and Black Ivan are the bottom of the barrel for the character jack/beast stable in this edition, and they’ve never been tuned during a CID or whatever. So you picked bad examples. |
|
)