olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Dec 31, 2020 10:42:03 GMT
Cause I noticed the ol'grim character in war room now. And two theme's can run widowmakers, the jack one and the winterguard one.
And both those can run Keil Bailoch.
So that gives us
Widowmakers 8
Widowmaker Marksman 4 - 12
Keil Bailoch 5 - 17
Ol'Grim 6 - 23 points.
Thoughts.
It wouldn't have to be a gun line, the above is a decent number of shots all on its own.
It wouldn't necessarily need either a rat or a damage boost considering all the sniper and deadly shots and boosted shots. Not that it'd mind one either.
It would probably appreciate ways to boost people's defense. The shot're expensive, they need to survive for a couple of turns.
Casters that spring to mind:
Irusk 2 - Immunity to blast damage, able to lay out rough terrain, fire for effect on grim or the marksman. Feat helps getting LOS.
That's it I think. I mean, there are others.
Witch 2 - Windstorm and Curse of Shadows are nice.
Vlad 1 - S&P obviously.
Sorcha 1 - Fog of War helps up defense, feat helps stall approaching army giving more time for pew pew.
But a lot of it feels a bit meh.
So, Irusk 2, it'd be nice to have some target for battle lust as well (if only legion of steel allowed for some widowmakers). One alternative would be to drop Keil for a merc unit and give them Valachev I guess. Nyss Hunters for example. Hmm. And then some warjacks to taste. And then fill out the rest of the points with whatever.
That gives us:
Irusk 2
Greylord Adjunct 4
Marauder
Marauder
Marauder
Marauder 17(44-27) -> 21
Rager 10 - 31
Eliminators (Requisition) 0 points
Eliminators (Requisition) 0 points
Ol ' Grim (Requisition) 0 points
Marksman 4 - 35
Widowmakers 8 - 43
Nyss Hunters Max + Valachev 23, - 66
Forge Seer 4 70
Mechanics Max - 75
Theme benefits Jaws of the Wolf
Warjacks has path finder.
Place a 5" forest terrain piece before start of game
I don't know. I don't own four marauders. Forge seer doesn't do much. Irusk don't have that much focus to play with, he'd need to use the jack's piecemeal. Probably something wrong with war room that makes it technically illegal.
But you got some decent range and some decent melee. Near everything has pathfinder. Jacks get +2 movement from energizer. Irusk has a shield guard. Elims are spd 7. Nyss hunters are speed 7 and get valachev's 3 inch Zephyr.
It seems ok... maybe I'll do one for winter guard as well later.
What'd you think, is there a place for massed snipers in Khador?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 31, 2020 11:14:57 GMT
I think you probably get diminishing returns as you keep adding snipers? I'm not sure, in limited experience snipers are threatening enough to force my opponents to respect them, and it's not too hard to get their points back, but it's not hard to neutralise them if you're willing to make the investment. Which is great for me as it draws resources from my opponent, but I feel like it gets less great the more points I have in them? If that makes sense?
Still, I can see the thematic lure of Soviet snipers holding the enemy at bay. So sure, give it a go if you have the models.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Dec 31, 2020 13:02:18 GMT
I think you probably get diminishing returns as you keep adding snipers? I'm not sure, in limited experience snipers are threatening enough to force my opponents to respect them, and it's not too hard to get their points back, but it's not hard to neutralise them if you're willing to make the investment. Which is great for me as it draws resources from my opponent, but I feel like it gets less great the more points I have in them? If that makes sense? Still, I can see the thematic lure of Soviet snipers holding the enemy at bay. So sure, give it a go if you have the models. Yeah, I've wanted a widow maker warcaster since like end of mark 2. I guess warmachine isn't really the game for leaning on ranged combat but I still gravitate towards the dakka. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 31, 2020 14:06:42 GMT
Back in Mk2 I ended up moving towards (mediocre) shooting lists because my main opponent was Skorne, and they were just better at melee. Also shooting seemed easier as I didn't feel I needed as good a sense for positioning and threat vectors.
But shooting alone wouldn't win fights; at best it would soften the enemy up or remove specific pieces that I needed gone ($#%@&*ing baby elephant!). I seemed
to need enough bodies to at least be able to tie up enemy threats while my jacks cracked hard targets.
I dunno, that was a long time ago. I didn't get any Warmachine games in 2020, amd for a year or two before that I only really played a few intro games, so I don't have a feel for the game now.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Dec 31, 2020 16:06:30 GMT
Back in Mk2 I ended up moving towards (mediocre) shooting lists because my main opponent was Skorne, and they were just better at melee. Also shooting seemed easier as I didn't feel I needed as good a sense for positioning and threat vectors. But shooting alone wouldn't win fights; at best it would soften the enemy up or remove specific pieces that I needed gone ($#%@&*ing baby elephant!). I seemed to need enough bodies to at least be able to tie up enemy threats while my jacks cracked hard targets. I dunno, that was a long time ago. I didn't get any Warmachine games in 2020, amd for a year or two before that I only really played a few intro games, so I don't have a feel for the game now. Yeah, you usually need some melee as well. At least in khador that's not to difficult to get. One of my favorite armies is a sorcha 1 gunline. It's not competitive it's got some pretty obvious counters but damn if it isn't fun to play. I think it's something like: Sorcha 1 Adjunct Destroyer Destroyer Destroyer Destroyer Mortar Mortar Field Gun Field Gun Gun Carriage Max Rifle Corps, 3 Rocketeers, Kovnik Joe. I played a couple of variations of it. It might not look like it but four destroyers and a battle engine do give it some melee presence, especially after you focus fire down a heavy or two, and sorcha freezes a unit of infantry. One of many small flaws is if the opponent brings a cloudwall the list keels over and dies. Which is... very not good for a gunline. But aside from that it is a lot of fun. Huge amounts of arcing fires, templates everywhere, stationary entire armies giving you pinpoint accuracy, huge (for warmachine) range for your ranged attacks, moderate power on damage. Artillery dream. I haven't played in ages though. The game looks pretty dead at the moment, I think themes really hurt it. I just bought myself a bunch of models I've wanted to own for ages over christmas. If I wanted to do something more competitive I'd probably just buy two more doom reavers squads and run the vlad 2 doomreaverx4 army. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Dec 31, 2020 16:11:36 GMT
Well, we have the Adjunct for Eyeless Sight now (and possibly the Koldun Lord for even more depending on theme, or a Spriggan to use the Eyeless Sight to put flares past the cloud wall), so cloud walls aren't as bad as they used to be?
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Post by michael on Dec 31, 2020 16:24:02 GMT
The Koldun Lord only appears in Wolves of Winter, so not much sniping is happening there.  |
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Post by michael on Dec 31, 2020 16:30:47 GMT
... I haven't played in ages though. The game looks pretty dead at the moment, I think themes really hurt it. ..:. I think COVID and a year of quarantine are partly to blame too. |
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Dec 31, 2020 19:43:14 GMT
Well, we have the Adjunct for Eyeless Sight now (and possibly the Koldun Lord for even more depending on theme, or a Spriggan to use the Eyeless Sight to put flares past the cloud wall), so cloud walls aren't as bad as they used to be? The adjunct is certainly nice. Also Grim can spend souls to ignore los entirely. Might be tricky filling him up on souls but if you get there he'd do some work. Spriggan always seem to expensive but maybe that could work. Or just run vlad and apply cloud-b-gone. Or irusk 2 who ignores clouds with his feat. I still say irusk 2 for a sniper army. Snipers, some decent jacks, any decent melee troop you can battle lust, merc or otherwise and go to town. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 1, 2021 2:32:32 GMT
Juat to be clear I was talking Spriggan and the Adjunct for the Sorscha gunline.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jan 1, 2021 10:38:52 GMT
Another warcaster who benefits from the sniping contingent is Karchev1 for very easy RTW triggers. Also i think Yuri2 should be added to the list of sniper models. He ambushes and then shoots his migthy Tharn bow and contributes to scenario.
Back to karchev, i think you are better of just using Ol Grim + Marksman + free Yuri2 though, because you need points for more jacks and at leats one junior in his list.
One of the things I want to test going forward is if Scouts are still needed when you have 3 shooty solos for RTW.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Jan 1, 2021 13:45:02 GMT
Another warcaster who benefits from the sniping contingent is Karchev1 for very easy RTW triggers. Also i think Yuri2 should be added to the list of sniper models. He ambushes and then shoots his migthy Tharn bow and contributes to scenario. Back to karchev, i think you are better of just using Ol Grim + Marksman + free Yuri2 though, because you need points for more jacks and at leats one junior in his list. One of the things I want to test going forward is if Scouts are still needed when you have 3 shooty solos for RTW. Sniper rifling people with an axe does sound like a very Khador thing to d... Oh. Oooh. Yuri 2. Right. I was thinking him slingshoting himself screaming out of a forest and planting his axe in someone's skull was kind of like getting headshot by a widowmaker rifle. A POW 14 BOW what. |
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Post by steeltitan on Jan 1, 2021 16:30:19 GMT
Another warcaster who benefits from the sniping contingent is Karchev1 for very easy RTW triggers. Also i think Yuri2 should be added to the list of sniper models. He ambushes and then shoots his migthy Tharn bow and contributes to scenario. Back to karchev, i think you are better of just using Ol Grim + Marksman + free Yuri2 though, because you need points for more jacks and at leats one junior in his list. One of the things I want to test going forward is if Scouts are still needed when you have 3 shooty solos for RTW. +1 on all points. I would see the snipers as a compliment to a list, not as a main item so to speak and certainly not something to pick your caster based on. Even with caster support, that part of your list wont win you a game (vs lets say a Sloan list). Im keen to try out the sniper solos and Yuri2. Like Sorokin said, Im not sure if the WMs are worth it but i like the idea...unfortunately I havent been impressed by them as i recently outlined on FB. |
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Jan 1, 2021 19:21:48 GMT
Another warcaster who benefits from the sniping contingent is Karchev1 for very easy RTW triggers. Also i think Yuri2 should be added to the list of sniper models. He ambushes and then shoots his migthy Tharn bow and contributes to scenario. Back to karchev, i think you are better of just using Ol Grim + Marksman + free Yuri2 though, because you need points for more jacks and at leats one junior in his list. One of the things I want to test going forward is if Scouts are still needed when you have 3 shooty solos for RTW. +1 on all points. I would see the snipers as a compliment to a list, not as a main item so to speak and certainly not something to pick your caster based on. Even with caster support, that part of your list wont win you a game (vs lets say a Sloan list). Im keen to try out the sniper solos and Yuri2. Like Sorokin said, Im not sure if the WMs are worth it but i like the idea...unfortunately I havent been impressed by them as i recently outlined on FB. Irusk 2 has energizer. Ambushing Yuri 2 sounds fun though. Wouldn't really try and outgun sloan. Widowmakers are expensive, 8 points for 4 single shot, 1 damage models is expensive. If the enemy does not have a lot of single wound models they aren't really worth it I think. |
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jan 4, 2021 10:55:27 GMT
One alternative would be to drop Keil for a merc unit and give them Valachev I guess. Nyss Hunters for example. You can only take Valachev in Wolves of Winter. Also, Nyss Hunters are bad. They're getting a cost reduction soon, but they'll still be bad. |
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