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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2020 9:04:28 GMT
Well this topic got real depressing. Ye kidding? Berserkers are FUN! I agree. But I also like, well, pretty much every jack we have, so the idea of "only Berserkers are worth playing" does not do a hell of a lot for me. Anyway, if we gonna wishlist, I'll just list out my desired Spriggan changes again: MAT6 -> MAT7 (I'm fine with either Powerful Charge or Brutal Charge) ARM19 -> ARM20 POW2 ARM+2 Shield -> POW3 ARM+1 Open Fist Buckler (or better yet actually live up to the fluff and make it POW4 shield like the Swabber) + Sturdy ('cos Clamjack; optional but would be nice) + allow out-of-activation ranged attacks from Sentry or Broadside etc to use the Flare rule (I mean, why not?)
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2020 9:09:40 GMT
(Disclaimer; I've pretty much thought that colossals were bad for the game since their release, so I'm highly biased on this point!) Yeah, I always felt they threw the game off; I've just never been a fan for a number of reasons. I mean, they're pretty cool in a lot of ways, but they don't fit my idea of WMH as a "skirmish" game. Maybe if they were only useable in Unbound, like how 40K use to only allow superheavy stuff in Apocalypse, but I guess then they wouldn't sell enough to justify their production?
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Post by P'tit Nico on Oct 5, 2020 9:26:07 GMT
+ allow out-of-activation ranged attacks from Sentry or Broadside etc to use the Flare rule (I mean, why not?) You can already do that actually
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2020 9:47:15 GMT
+ allow out-of-activation ranged attacks from Sentry or Broadside etc to use the Flare rule (I mean, why not?) You can already do that actually Last I heard it was ruled that you can't? Was that ruling overturned, or am I just wrong as usual?
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Post by P'tit Nico on Oct 5, 2020 9:56:32 GMT
You can already do that actually Last I heard it was ruled that you can't? Was that ruling overturned, or am I just wrong as usual? I don't know whether you're usually wrong, but in this case you are. Here's the ruling (which wasn't needed IMO, as there's nothing in the Targeting Flare rule mentioning the activation, it was pretty clear to me).
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2020 10:34:07 GMT
Last I heard it was ruled that you can't? Was that ruling overturned, or am I just wrong as usual? I don't know whether you're usually wrong, but in this case you are. Here's the ruling (which wasn't needed IMO, as there's nothing in the Targeting Flare rule mentioning the activation, it was pretty clear to me). Cool, thanks. I agree that the wording of the rule seemed to suggest that flare could be used any time an attack was made.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 10:41:26 GMT
@squee stop trying to make Berserkers happen. They have victim stats, they only have MAT 6 so they'll miss way more often that other better jacks, and they don't hit hard. Also, Unstable is bad. If you want to run lots of jacks, take Marauders and Juggernauts. Marauders are our most/only competitive jack hands down, but I'd argue that mass juggernauts aren't worth it since the points increase unless ye have some magical way to have them clear mobs. Maybe one as a dedicated can-cracker, but I'd never suggest people take more without a very specific plan in mind. Unstable is, in my experience exceptionally useful as my environment is filled with single wound infantry with ARM buffs and/or Tough out the arse. This allows them to shrug off POW 9 from Rain of Death but not a POW 14. Berserkers are happening for me regardless as they have been giving me results and have proven to be most enjoyable so long as one has a caster who can address 2/3 of the following issues: -poor accuracy -middling P+S -low threat range In my weekly group, charge threat ranges need to be 12" minimum, otherwise you need to build for absorbing the alpha where you're being hit by P+S 18++ So in my environment for Khador: 1.) You will never get the first charge 2.) You will always lose a model first 3.) ARM cannot save you 4.) Your opponent will always outnumber you with infantry whose ARM reaches about 17 after buffs. Yet I wish to play jacks en masse. See how the Berserker addresses my needs? What do ye think happens to Juggernauts and Marauders in an environment that is mostly much cheaper jacks and mass infantry, all of which are capable of trivially tearing through armor 20?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 10:50:38 GMT
Ye kidding? Berserkers are FUN! I agree. But I also like, well, pretty much every jack we have, so the idea of "only Berserkers are worth playing" does not do a hell of a lot for me. Then I mis-spoke; my apologies. What I mean is sure, the others have a place supporting more infantry-centric builds as 'quality' muscle, but if you're running, say, Jack-heavy Jaws, ye need to balance out your 'quality' jacks with cheap, expendable bodies that can project some degree of threat. That is where the Berserker is extremely useful. The Juggernaut/Kodiak chasses jacks are can-cracking team players, waiting for a chance to jump enemy heavies and trusting in its puny little infantry friends to deal with the little annoyances that the enemy will throw in their way. The Berserkers are substitutes for said puny little infantry friends when ye don't want to have to move large amounts of said puny little infantry across the board. π
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Post by P'tit Nico on Oct 5, 2020 11:49:33 GMT
@squee stop trying to make Berserkers happen. They have victim stats, they only have MAT 6 so they'll miss way more often that other better jacks, and they don't hit hard. Also, Unstable is bad. If you want to run lots of jacks, take Marauders and Juggernauts. Marauders are our most/only competitive jack hands down, but I'd argue that mass juggernauts aren't worth it since the points increase unless ye have some magical way to have them clear mobs. Maybe one as a dedicated can-cracker, but I'd never suggest people take more without a very specific plan in mind. Unstable is, in my experience exceptionally useful as my environment is filled with single wound infantry with ARM buffs and/or Tough out the arse. This allows them to shrug off POW 9 from Rain of Death but not a POW 14. Berserkers are happening for me regardless as they have been giving me results and have proven to be most enjoyable so long as one has a caster who can address 2/3 of the following issues: -poor accuracy -middling P+S -low threat range In my weekly group, charge threat ranges need to be 12" minimum, otherwise you need to build for absorbing the alpha where you're being hit by P+S 18++ So in my environment for Khador: 1.) You will never get the first charge 2.) You will always lose a model first 3.) ARM cannot save you 4.) Your opponent will always outnumber you with infantry whose ARM reaches about 17 after buffs. Yet I wish to play jacks en masse. See how the Berserker addresses my needs? What do ye think happens to Juggernauts and Marauders in an environment that is mostly much cheaper jacks and mass infantry, all of which are capable of trivially tearing through armor 20? Sorry, but I just can't picture Berserkers working. What lists do you play them into? What do you play against? Did you write any battle reports?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 12:08:29 GMT
Sadly I did not have the time to write reports. However, my most common match ups are:
Blaize Flames Damiano Soldiers Ashlynn Resistance Ossrum Searforge Gunnbjorn Kriel Co Kryssa Children Anamag Primal Fyana Ravens Thagrosh can't remember wot theme
I usually use 3-5 Berserker chassis jacks in Jaws with: Old Witch n Scrappy Vladimir the Duck Prince The Butcher of Khardov Kommander Strakhov Lord Kozlov
My most recent favourite has been:
Kozlov - 3 Berserkers - 2 Ragers - Kodiak - Marauder
2 Forgeseers Tinker
Requisition: 2 units of Eliminators
The Victor has also become a staple for me due to its crowd control capabilities and ability to bypass infantry blast immunity by setting them on fire, reducing DEF with flare or even just slowing them down with rough terrain.
Strakhov - 2 Ragers - 2 Berserkers - Victor
2 Forgeseers
Requisition: 2 units of Eliminators
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Post by michael on Oct 5, 2020 17:55:26 GMT
It is interesting β although with the dead old CID forum, I canβt provide links β how we made many of these same points during the Armored Corps CID in 2018.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2020 19:26:29 GMT
I've heard the horror stories of the CIDs.
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Post by Havock on Oct 5, 2020 21:31:58 GMT
I mostly just don't see the benefit of using Berserkers over Marauders; you do not get enough berserker over marauder to justify it. And yes, buffed up infantry shreds jacks, the problem is that Berserkers are basically Cygnar heavies and don't need buffing to screw them over. Case in point: Playing LoS I was up against some of them; I just charged them to shit while the marauder was intact enough that Ineeded to clear the mechanics behind it to not have it trample over all my dudes. And seeing as I failed it still had its cortex busted so it depended on unboosted 6s, which failed after one or two swings. I guess Vlad1 can make them work but it's S&P, the ultimate turd-polisher. I mean, for lols, I think you can make this work in 50 points: The lone Mad Dog is there to get catapulted the Firetruck up field if need be: Under feat, Boundless Charge and Fleet it can "safely" charge 15".
That's pretty far. I mean, it's not going to punch out anything more than a light jack but it can certainly do that. Or a solo.
But it's mostly just to be a pain in the ass and charge-contest a flag or something. The tinker can just sit on your flag or something.
You could probably swap out one berserker for a pair of Forge Seers but we're going full ham so why.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 23:49:24 GMT
@havoc
You'd want the Forgeseers because going boom is how the Berserker clears mobs.
Try a mix of Marauders and Berserkers. Spamming too hard loses you flexibility.
We're not favoured enough as a faction to be able to pull that off with our jack design.
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Post by Havock on Oct 6, 2020 1:06:22 GMT
Nah at this point you are just facerolling and crutching on S&P. You're not seeing truly giant mobs at 50 points and you outtgreat most jack/beast based lists.
It's just feat & S&P at that point. Forge Seers are cute but eh, it's another Berserker at this point.
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