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Post by wasted79 on Sept 11, 2020 14:49:24 GMT
Hi guys,
i never played higher than 50pts in MK3 and mostly very casual games at 25 pts against Menoth and Retribution.
I'm planning to return to organized play and because my usual place is now closed (Covid is particulary harsh on Hobby Shops), i need to go in a more competitive one, now. (not necessary a bad thing in itself but the former was closer to me)
So, i saw in the threads here that Armored Corps are considered subpar and i would like if someone could take the time to explain why (all the factors). Because i honestly like the ManoWars and, at 25pts, oppositions struggle to pass throught Shocktroopers at Arm23 (with Iron Flesh) since with UA they're push and knockdown proof. I can see they're lacking access to magical weapons, anti-stealth and all, but since they're so hard to remove, they can sit on the objective with impunity.
I do have some leagues experiences but it was from MK2. (once upon a time when High Def cheap infantry spam was the only way to go for Khador)
If you could let me benefit from your tactical insights, i would been really pleased! (even more if it can prevent me to be completely dominated when i will start playing with competitive people lol)
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 11, 2020 16:13:52 GMT
It's probably worth checking the dates on those threads, as there's two distinct phases in the Armoured Corps life-cycle. There was the benighted time before the CID where they were in with a reasonable shout of being the worst theme in Khador, and the glorious time since then where they are arguably the best. (It would be a pretty even-sided argument, though, as Khador has multiple good themes now)
The other one that sometimes comes up is AK (Assault Kommandoes) being mistaken for AC (Armoured Corps). AKs are poop. AC is great.
Armoured Corps is great. Every unit now has a Unit Attachment, so Shocktroopers are fantastic at their job, Demo Corps gain a bit of survivability, Bombardiers... well, I think they still suck but others swear by them.
On top of that you've got the amazing Tanker solos, a Support unit in Atanas, and the theme benefits help with your main weakness, which is speed. You even get two battle engines. They're low on the absurdly variable scale of Battle Engine power, but I've rarely regretted taking one.
The theme itself has a decent spread of range and melee options, and quite a bit of support internally. This means you can run it with a wide range of casters. Sorscha3 and Irusk2 are ones I'm fond of, but honestly anyone that can boost any of speed, damage, ARM, pathfinder... anything, really, can make them run like a dream
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Post by michael on Sept 11, 2020 22:37:58 GMT
I generally agree with hocestbellum’s assessment.
I additionally posit that:
A) The Tankers make the theme work. Do not leave them out. That would be a mistake.
B) Dragos (the Demo Corps CA) is not worth it, which kind of makes vanilla Demo Corps not worth it. Take more Shocktroopers and CAs instead.
C) If you take Bombardiers, you need to take their CA. It helps them out tremendously. Don’t take Bombardiers without one.
But those are my only points of clarification or difference with what hoc said.
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 13, 2020 9:35:48 GMT
See, there's one of those madmen that like Bombardiers! But on the flip side I'm one of those madmen that like vanilla Demo Corps, so it's a wash.
(I do wish they were 8/13 in cost like every other similar unit. They're one of the few units that gets more expensive per model when you get the full compliment!)
The reason I like Demo Corps is the potential damage spikes. Crit Freeze is neat and all, but when it makes your whole unit P16 weaponmasters it's a threat that opponents can't always afford to ignore.
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Post by michael on Sept 13, 2020 15:26:32 GMT
See, there's one of those madmen that like Bombardiers! But on the flip side I'm one of those madmen that like vanilla Demo Corps, so it's a wash. (I do wish they were 8/13 in cost like every other similar unit. They're one of the few units that gets more expensive per model when you get the full compliment!) The reason I like Demo Corps is the potential damage spikes. Crit Freeze is neat and all, but when it makes your whole unit P16 weaponmasters it's a threat that opponents can't always afford to ignore. So, I’ve thought about this a lot. I shelved my Armored Corps after L&L 2018 when like every other table had that theme on it. (Dilettantes! Johnny-come-latelys to Man-o-War! I was playing MoW before your battlegroup box was in diapers! Why, back in my day...) So, pro: the Demo Corps are 2 points cheaper, and they have 2 more P+S than Shocktroopers. Cons: lower native ARM (putting them square in “boosted handcannon can oneshot them” range), lower effective ARM than Shocktroopers because of Shield Wall. So there’s that; make of it what you will. But, Crit Freeze is not meaningful on those guys. You end up with maybe one crit freeze triggering per game, and end up with an average 3.5 damage for the trouble. And that lucky crit is by no means guaranteed to happen on a target with boxes. It can just as easily overkill some ARM 14 grunt, which makes it kind of a waste. Sorscha1 and 3 are the only real, reliable sources of Stationary available to the army. (Again, hoping for a lucky crit from the Forge Seer or, like, Zerkova1 is not a reliable game plan.) And there seem to be a not-insignificant number of no-stationary abilities out there. Which is to say: my advice is: don’t build an army that depends on Shatter, because it is not reliable. Or, at least, go in with eyes wide open, knowing that you’re likely to have wildly variable performance game-to-game based on luck. (What I do find more reliable is two attacks from Shocktroopers+CA using the Assault order. But that is a different discussion, I suppose.) |
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 13, 2020 19:11:21 GMT
Haha, okay, lets rephrase this: assuming that I've already got 2 units of Shocktroopers my next unit will be Demo Corps, not Bombardiers.
Shocktroopers are by far the best MoW unit, but they (a) don't hit that hard and they (b) don't clear swarms that well.
Demo Corps hit a bit harder and are cheaper, so can do a job for problem (a), but are even worse at (b).
Bombardiers don't hit any harder, aren't any cheaper, and a P7 3" blast isn't even that good at clearing swarms. I can cover (b) more effectively using Tankers or Destroyers, or even the Assault Chariot. (Yes, I'm serious. It's not a great meta pick but it clears swarms like nothing else and is faster, tougher and cheaper)
So I'm not taking the DC because they have Crit Freeze, I'm taking them because I like having a bit more welly. The fact that this extra power sometimes comes with even more power on top is marvellous. My observation is that it worries my opponents, knowing that just one can cripple a warjack (no matter how unlikely that situation is.)
Another useful point of comparison is that Bombardiers pretty much need a full unit and a UA to do their thing. Demo Corps don't care. They're disposable missiles, nothing more, and I'm quite fond of sticking a min unit in if I've got some spare points.
But at the heart of this, I entirely agree with you: I very, very rarely take any other MoW units until I've got 2 of Shocktroopers, so I'm 100% on board with team 'Take More STs'!
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Post by sand20go on Sept 14, 2020 19:37:23 GMT
I really want to play AC with Vlad1. Feels like he can sit back and cast S&P and and occasional high value BC and then leverage things like bombers, tanker, and Chariots. Maybe sometime next week.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2020 9:56:50 GMT
My Armored Corps:
Kovnik Andrei Malakov
- Victor
5 Shocktroopers
5 Demo Corps
Kommandant Atanas & Friend
Man o War Kovnik
4 Battle Mechaniks
Requisition:
Shocktrooper Officer
Sgt. Dragadovich
Total: 50 points.
Malakov casts Escort and Supremacy on STs. Kovnik uses desperate pace on STs. STs run up the middle. Mechaniks follow Malakov. Victor runs.
Demo Corps move in pairs up the Flank.
Who Atanas follows depends on who you're fighting.
Round 2, Shocktroopers shield wall and repo for a total of 9". Victor moves up behind them to give some covering fire. DCs sneak through terrain, using Veil of Mists if necessary. Engage as fast as possible and feat defensively.
Remember bond of brotherhood helps to near ensure that they'll survive to use Malakov's feat.
Also remember that Veil of Mists will allow 1 or 2 Demo Corps to walk through a house and coupled with Throat Cutter can make for a surprisingly good assassination. I've only pulled this off twice though, once with Dragadovich and once with Atanas.
Malakov's strength is not threat extension but maneuverability. Use terrain and VoM to your advantage.
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Post by hocestbellum on Sept 24, 2020 11:51:16 GMT
I'm not sure Atanas is really needed? He always feels like an expensive luxury to me, especially when you can already grant Pathfinder and Tactician via Veil of Mists if required.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 6:48:04 GMT
I'm not sure Atanas is really needed? He always feels like an expensive luxury to me, especially when you can already grant Pathfinder and Tactician via Veil of Mists if required. He's there more for his other battle plans and being an extra unit he can capture zones while the others get work done. |
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Post by auraco on Sept 26, 2020 3:04:43 GMT
I've found Atanas and the bannerbuy very usefull to just score zone while the rest of the dudes are otherwise occupied and having one extra activation with a high pow high accuracy attack can help a lot to remove a model that would otherwise jam a unit.
Shocktroopers are the best unit in the theme, I fin the demo corps playable with Sorscha3 and that's about it. I find Sorscha3 the best caster for the theme. Take an adjunct regardless of caster choice, always take an adjunct.
Take the tankers they're the models that make the theme work, don't waste your time with the chariots, they are terrible and not worth your money or time.
The theme struggles with scenario because SR2019 want to make you play wide instead of a brick in the middle of the table, something armored corps really wants to do, some scenario are fine, other will have you feel like you're playing against the scenario first and against your opponent second.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 21:37:41 GMT
I've found Atanas and the bannerbuy very usefull to just score zone while the rest of the dudes are otherwise occupied and having one extra activation with a high pow high accuracy attack can help a lot to remove a model that would otherwise jam a unit. Me mate who plays cygnar was looking at my Atanas one day n said "given the size of a man o war and Atanas' hand cannon, shouldn't they just call it 'cannon'? I mean, it's an already heavy pistol scaled to a guy who's the size of a light jack!" 😆 |
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Post by michael on Sept 26, 2020 22:51:40 GMT
I've found Atanas and the bannerbuy very usefull to just score zone while the rest of the dudes are otherwise occupied and having one extra activation with a high pow high accuracy attack can help a lot to remove a model that would otherwise jam a unit. Me mate who plays cygnar was looking at my Atanas one day n said "given the size of a man o war and Atanas' hand cannon, shouldn't they just call it 'cannon'? I mean, it's an already heavy pistol scaled to a guy who's the size of a light jack!" 😆 We had some discussions along those very same lines during the Armored Corps CID. ... You will note that he still has a “hand cannon.” |
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Post by wasted79 on Sept 28, 2020 16:33:39 GMT
A conventionnal cannon lack an handle  |
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Post by wasted79 on Sept 28, 2020 16:35:10 GMT
Probably sure that the handaxe from a juggernaut couldn't been even lifted by a regular human, either  |
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