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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 2, 2020 18:57:11 GMT
Do you know what your local meta is like? Perhaps it's not so competitive that you can't just play what you like and not get roflstomped?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 2, 2020 19:56:52 GMT
Oh wow, great replies. Thanks for all the info guys. I was looking into the riot quest models and indeed ol' grim and bulkhead stand out as being good (and cool as hell). Why doesn't bulkhead get the benefit from kovniks or the armored korps advance move? Isn't he a man-o-war? As for the mixed themes, I'm not overly interested. The money is part of it but mostly it's that I came here to play Khador not Menites with their Khador friends. The infernals are pretty cool though not gonna lie so heart of darkness might be a thing I get in to. It sucks that jaws and armored korps are weaker themes, that's literally all I want to play. The whole reason I picked Khador in the first place was because I wanted big stompy robots and dudes in steam punk terminator armor. Oh well, not like being slightly disadvantaged is going to stop me. Thanks for the info dump y'all. Desperate Pace and Advance Move are unit only, he's a solo. He also usually wants to slam and not charge so Boundless Charge is a non-no for him too. The only was to up his pitiful threat range are Kozlov's and Strakovs1's feat.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 2, 2020 20:20:02 GMT
He also usually wants to slam and not charge so Boundless Charge is a non-no for him too. Why is that? Just for the range extension from Follow Up? If you're getting a range extension anyway from Boundless Charge, then... well, it's not necessarily worse than slamming in that case is it?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 2, 2020 21:00:31 GMT
Yeah, his walk and shoot range is 10", his charge and shoot range is 13", his slam and shoot range is 13"+d6". So guess boundless charging with him is alright, because 15" is pretty okay.
It's been a while since i looked at his card so things are only slowly coming back to me.
Now if there was actually a caster with BG that actually cared for AC... Old Witch maybe? She also makes the gun POW 18, but wolves exist, so...
Honestly Strak1 and kozlov still seem like the best choice. Strak especially. Yeeting bulkhead 13", following up d3" and double tapping something within 6" sounds actually really fun.
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Post by Havock on Sept 3, 2020 1:15:33 GMT
Funny thing is; bulkhead isn't bad, he just has to compete with all sorts of stuff in the one list you can bring him. Stuff that is better or more needed. (Cough cough, oh if only somebody like me had invested a ton of energy arguing that points shouldn’t be so incredibly tight in list building during the Armored Corps CID, and hadn’t got shouted down by all the anti-Khador CID trolls. Cough. Cough. Eh, I tried. I blame Pagani and the CID trolls. Yes, I know, it’s been two and a half years, I should let it go. Just... we get one try to get this stuff right, folks. Development seems content to stop at “not broken, good enough” in the CID, even if the models end up bland and uninspired or all but useless, and leave models, especially legacy models, there for years or in perpetuity. I just want our stuff to be good in a few years’ time, not just the few “shiny new” months post-CID. Okay, I’ll stop now.)
And that's exactly what happened basically: We got a decent thing which has to compete with all sorts of awesome things. (Also, I still think people gush too much over OMG P+S HIGH ARM STRONK and then "subtle bullshit" sneaks by, because those Gaspy4 threat ranges are totally a-ok)
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Post by auraco on Sept 3, 2020 2:11:29 GMT
The thing that annoys me the most about the Man o War CID is the chariots, people have been calling them bad during the entire CID and they still ended up sub par, and sub par by a faire margin when compared to other CID battle engine like say the trident. Oh well, the Wolves of winter CID was great to us, it gave us the redesigned koldun lord who's worth every penny and wolves of winter is super relevant in the current meta.
About trying to speed up Bulkhead, it's not worth it to take a sub par caster just to try to make a 5 point solo work... Strakhov1 is terrible at running armored corps and Kozlov is just strait up terrible. I'd work more on just trying to make that pow 16 gun useful. Casters like OW2, Sorscha1, Irusk1, Irusk2 all seems more attractive to me than a caster that can give it a +2 spd. Even Sorscha3 with her freeze tech seems more interesting for him that the casters that can speed him up a bit.
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Post by Havock on Sept 3, 2020 3:02:07 GMT
I think the biggest problem is that chariots are... Pretty much what I expect models of that point cost to perform but everyone else has overtweaked BS for a couple of points more for Battle Engines. I mean, I'm looking at my Railess and, well... Do you want to trade?
Also, I don't really consider Kozlov to be viable at 75 points, he's good in Brawl, and that is fine. Zerkova1 can do the same for AC as she does for Legion of Steel. Or did, because RIP Legion of Steel you died too young
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Post by michael on Sept 3, 2020 3:56:32 GMT
The thing that annoys me the most about the Man o War CID is the chariots, people have been calling them bad during the entire CID and they still ended up sub par, and sub par by a faire margin when compared to other CID battle engine like say the trident. Oh well, the Wolves of winter CID was great to us, it gave us the redesigned koldun lord who's worth every penny and wolves of winter is super relevant in the current meta. About trying to speed up Bulkhead, it's not worth it to take a sub par caster just to try to make a 5 point solo work... Strakhov1 is terrible at running armored corps and Kozlov is just strait up terrible. I'd work more on just trying to make that pow 16 gun useful. Casters like OW2, Sorscha1, Irusk1, Irusk2 all seems more attractive to me than a caster that can give it a +2 spd. Even Sorscha3 with her freeze tech seems more interesting for him that the casters that can speed him up a bit. I disagree about Wolves of Winter. Archons are basically hard counters to that whole theme. It’s not even funny. And what army has archons in it nowadays? Every single army.Wolves had that “OMG new stuff = strong!!1!” feeling right out of the gate, but immediately crashed back to earth once the reality set in that you’re playing an army of no-defensive-tech single-wound dudes who rely on charging straight into the enemy in order to accomplish any work. And forget about building the theme around Greylords, because the crushing overloading of “all the good stuff” on the Koldun is frustrating (opportunity costs aren’t fun, you dig), while the tepid piles of trash Ternions cry out for something to make them worthwhile. The Outriders are solid, but they’re still 17 points out of an army that really needs as many warm bodies on the table as possible in order to function. Unless the rest of the Khador world has some super secret tech and superior strategies that I failed to find during my last ~50 games with the theme, then... I don’t know, man.
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Post by michael on Sept 3, 2020 4:06:51 GMT
I think the biggest problem is that chariots are... Pretty much what I expect models of that point cost to perform but everyone else has overtweaked BS for a couple of points more for Battle Engines. I mean, I'm looking at my Railess and, well... Do you want to trade?
Also, I don't really consider Kozlov to be viable at 75 points, he's good in Brawl, and that is fine. Zerkova1 can do the same for AC as she does for Legion of Steel. Or did, because RIP Legion of Steel you died too young Either the second week or the last week of the chariot rules had them in a pretty good spot. The assault chariot really needed to keep Volley Fire, in my opinion. The Siege Chariot... I don’t know. A POW 20 gun is a nice trick, but, yes, every time I used it I always felt like it needed just a little something more. I don’t know what. Siege Weapon? Which brings me back around to Demo Corps. Sigh. I’m just gonna quit talking about this now. For real. I’m stopping. I will stop beating this horse to death, folks.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 3, 2020 8:55:27 GMT
The thing that annoys me the most about the Man o War CID is the chariots, people have been calling them bad during the entire CID and they still ended up sub par, and sub par by a faire margin when compared to other CID battle engine like say the trident. Oh well, the Wolves of winter CID was great to us, it gave us the redesigned koldun lord who's worth every penny and wolves of winter is super relevant in the current meta. About trying to speed up Bulkhead, it's not worth it to take a sub par caster just to try to make a 5 point solo work... Strakhov1 is terrible at running armored corps and Kozlov is just strait up terrible. I'd work more on just trying to make that pow 16 gun useful. Casters like OW2, Sorscha1, Irusk1, Irusk2 all seems more attractive to me than a caster that can give it a +2 spd. Even Sorscha3 with her freeze tech seems more interesting for him that the casters that can speed him up a bit. I mean, incidentally, OW2 and S1 make him faster AND make his gun more useful.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 3, 2020 8:58:21 GMT
The thing that annoys me the most about the Man o War CID is the chariots, people have been calling them bad during the entire CID and they still ended up sub par, and sub par by a faire margin when compared to other CID battle engine like say the trident. Oh well, the Wolves of winter CID was great to us, it gave us the redesigned koldun lord who's worth every penny and wolves of winter is super relevant in the current meta. About trying to speed up Bulkhead, it's not worth it to take a sub par caster just to try to make a 5 point solo work... Strakhov1 is terrible at running armored corps and Kozlov is just strait up terrible. I'd work more on just trying to make that pow 16 gun useful. Casters like OW2, Sorscha1, Irusk1, Irusk2 all seems more attractive to me than a caster that can give it a +2 spd. Even Sorscha3 with her freeze tech seems more interesting for him that the casters that can speed him up a bit. I disagree about Wolves of Winter. Archons are basically hard counters to that whole theme. It’s not even funny. And what army has archons in it nowadays? Every single army.Wolves had that “OMG new stuff = strong!!1!” feeling right out of the gate, but immediately crashed back to earth once the reality set in that you’re playing an army of no-defensive-tech single-wound dudes who rely on charging straight into the enemy in order to accomplish any work. And forget about building the theme around Greylords, because the crushing overloading of “all the good stuff” on the Koldun is frustrating (opportunity costs aren’t fun, you dig), while the tepid piles of trash Ternions cry out for something to make them worthwhile. The Outriders are solid, but they’re still 17 points out of an army that really needs as many warm bodies on the table as possible in order to function. Unless the rest of the Khador world has some super secret tech and superior strategies that I failed to find during my last ~50 games with the theme, then... I don’t know, man. If WoW is so bad why does it see competitive lime light? Why are people like Chris Davies able to terrorise their metas with it?
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Post by auraco on Sept 3, 2020 12:48:33 GMT
The thing that annoys me the most about the Man o War CID is the chariots, people have been calling them bad during the entire CID and they still ended up sub par, and sub par by a faire margin when compared to other CID battle engine like say the trident. Oh well, the Wolves of winter CID was great to us, it gave us the redesigned koldun lord who's worth every penny and wolves of winter is super relevant in the current meta. About trying to speed up Bulkhead, it's not worth it to take a sub par caster just to try to make a 5 point solo work... Strakhov1 is terrible at running armored corps and Kozlov is just strait up terrible. I'd work more on just trying to make that pow 16 gun useful. Casters like OW2, Sorscha1, Irusk1, Irusk2 all seems more attractive to me than a caster that can give it a +2 spd. Even Sorscha3 with her freeze tech seems more interesting for him that the casters that can speed him up a bit. I disagree about Wolves of Winter. Archons are basically hard counters to that whole theme. It’s not even funny. And what army has archons in it nowadays? Every single army.Wolves had that “OMG new stuff = strong!!1!” feeling right out of the gate, but immediately crashed back to earth once the reality set in that you’re playing an army of no-defensive-tech single-wound dudes who rely on charging straight into the enemy in order to accomplish any work. And forget about building the theme around Greylords, because the crushing overloading of “all the good stuff” on the Koldun is frustrating (opportunity costs aren’t fun, you dig), while the tepid piles of trash Ternions cry out for something to make them worthwhile. The Outriders are solid, but they’re still 17 points out of an army that really needs as many warm bodies on the table as possible in order to function. Unless the rest of the Khador world has some super secret tech and superior strategies that I failed to find during my last ~50 games with the theme, then... I don’t know, man. Wait what?! How do archon hard counter the theme? I really don't get it. It has its weakness for sure, but saying it crashed back to earth immediately just doesn't represent how my games have been going. I don't understand what you're saying about the koldun lord, it's a great solo and we can take more than one. The ternions are too expansive to pay as a unit, but as a requisition choice they are totally ok and the ice cage they bring to the table is very valuable especially in an archon meta (something that you somehow say hard counters the theme...) I've ice caged a ton of archon into uselesseness since the archon meta has been out and it feels great every time. The outriders are... not for everyone, but with a caster that can support them like Vlad2 they are worth every penny of their 17 points, with say OW2 I'd just take something else. I don't know about superior strategies, but I've been going strong with the theme since it got out, including strong showing at conventions including winning the Ontario Team Championship mostly on the back of Vlad2 wolves (that I played 4 games out of 5, shameless plug: lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/9543/2020-results-went-winning-team) and that was the last big con before the End Times. I'm also taking it to the VTC and for our round 1 pairing and against a couple of our possible opponents it's a clear drop for me into both of their list, it feels great to have in the pairing process so far. You need to know when to drop it and when not to, don't expect the theme to perform against a Gearhart gunline, but it's a list that performs super well into Menoth, Cryx, Infernals, Grymkin, Trolls, Minions in general and against other factions it's list dependant but it's far from useless, it's also not bad in the Khador mirror match up.
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Post by auraco on Sept 3, 2020 12:50:43 GMT
The thing that annoys me the most about the Man o War CID is the chariots, people have been calling them bad during the entire CID and they still ended up sub par, and sub par by a faire margin when compared to other CID battle engine like say the trident. Oh well, the Wolves of winter CID was great to us, it gave us the redesigned koldun lord who's worth every penny and wolves of winter is super relevant in the current meta. About trying to speed up Bulkhead, it's not worth it to take a sub par caster just to try to make a 5 point solo work... Strakhov1 is terrible at running armored corps and Kozlov is just strait up terrible. I'd work more on just trying to make that pow 16 gun useful. Casters like OW2, Sorscha1, Irusk1, Irusk2 all seems more attractive to me than a caster that can give it a +2 spd. Even Sorscha3 with her freeze tech seems more interesting for him that the casters that can speed him up a bit. I mean, incidentally, OW2 and S1 make him faster AND make his gun more useful. Yeah that's why I'm mentionning them, I'm not taking them as casters just to try to make Bulkhead work I'm taking them because they have tools that can be usefull to him but not essential and I'm not hindering myself by taking a caster just for him, like people are suggesting with Kozlov or Strakhov1...
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Post by auraco on Sept 3, 2020 12:52:23 GMT
I disagree about Wolves of Winter. Archons are basically hard counters to that whole theme. It’s not even funny. And what army has archons in it nowadays? Every single army.Wolves had that “OMG new stuff = strong!!1!” feeling right out of the gate, but immediately crashed back to earth once the reality set in that you’re playing an army of no-defensive-tech single-wound dudes who rely on charging straight into the enemy in order to accomplish any work. And forget about building the theme around Greylords, because the crushing overloading of “all the good stuff” on the Koldun is frustrating (opportunity costs aren’t fun, you dig), while the tepid piles of trash Ternions cry out for something to make them worthwhile. The Outriders are solid, but they’re still 17 points out of an army that really needs as many warm bodies on the table as possible in order to function. Unless the rest of the Khador world has some super secret tech and superior strategies that I failed to find during my last ~50 games with the theme, then... I don’t know, man. If WoW is so bad why does it see competitive lime light? Why are people like Chris Davies able to terrorise their metas with it? ^That, as a pure khador theme, not including warrior of the old faith and flame in the dark, it's by far our best theme and it can hold its own in a competitive tournament environement.
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Post by steeltitan on Sept 3, 2020 15:06:15 GMT
Do you know what your local meta is like? Perhaps it's not so competitive that you can't just play what you like and not get roflstomped? This. You dont need to compete with the internet meta world as long as you can deal with your local scene.
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