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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 4, 2020 12:16:18 GMT
You know, if you want to make the most out of Sidestep, the Rager has three initials...
<ducks behind cover before Michael can start ranting>
Sidestep three times to get well into enemy lines then explode to kill stuff? Sounds like my idea of a good time!
... wait, that came out wrong! Crap! I'm on an FBI watchlist or something now aren't I?
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 13:04:04 GMT
A beserker only needs 1 focus to charge. With the choir, he has two initials that hit at power 18 each. With infernal machine and Vlad3's feat he can side step AND he has berserk and would be perfect for taking out the heaps of archons around. If he's going to die from a counter attack anyway, then you may want to commit him and give him the focus. Heck I think even the explosion damage role is boosted by the choir. But really assuming you don't allocate any focus to him (just as you don't allocate any focus to a dervish) I don't see what's the problem. I've played him with Vlad3 (with a judicator) and with Jakes 2 (Flames) to great success as a low resource heavy you toss in harms way for trading. I would never want a purifier or a dervish in its stead for this role. If the opponent ignores him and allows him to survive to the late game, you have a pwr18 heavy that can get work done. Of course, he's not the kind of jack you just toss into any list, but Vlad3 wotof makes a lot of sense IMO. The crusader is also a great discount jack and a better comparisson than a dervish, but sometimes you just don't have 2 points. I am also curious about sprint and the berserker: can you sprint and then blow up? Because that would be good with the infernal machine speed boost, and the choir damage boost. Lots to dispute, but you get the discount version because I want to eat breakfast instead. Two MAT 6 initials. Good luck hitting those DEF 14+ archons without boosting. Two P+S 18 attacks are worthless if you can’t hit. Why would you only allocate only 1 focus to a model you’re sending to deal with archons, or anything else? That’s a waste and stupid. The math doesn’t work out. The Berserker will usually die to retaliation yes, but why do your opponent’s job for them. Unstable doesn’t even force them to commit resources to dealing with the Berserker. The Dervish has Side Step and Parry all the time, not just feat turn. That is not trivial. Almost anything else is a better warjack than the Berserker.
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 13:43:02 GMT
You know, if you want to make the most out of Sidestep, the Rager has three initials... <ducks behind cover before Michael can start ranting> Sidestep three times to get well into enemy lines then explode to kill stuff? Sounds like my idea of a good time! ... wait, that came out wrong! Crap! I'm on an FBI watchlist or something now aren't I? I’m not ranting. I am just disappointed that more people are not me.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 4, 2020 15:35:48 GMT
A beserker only needs 1 focus to charge. With the choir, he has two initials that hit at power 18 each. With infernal machine and Vlad3's feat he can side step AND he has berserk and would be perfect for taking out the heaps of archons around. If he's going to die from a counter attack anyway, then you may want to commit him and give him the focus. Heck I think even the explosion damage role is boosted by the choir. But really assuming you don't allocate any focus to him (just as you don't allocate any focus to a dervish) I don't see what's the problem. I've played him with Vlad3 (with a judicator) and with Jakes 2 (Flames) to great success as a low resource heavy you toss in harms way for trading. I would never want a purifier or a dervish in its stead for this role. If the opponent ignores him and allows him to survive to the late game, you have a pwr18 heavy that can get work done. Of course, he's not the kind of jack you just toss into any list, but Vlad3 wotof makes a lot of sense IMO. The crusader is also a great discount jack and a better comparisson than a dervish, but sometimes you just don't have 2 points. I am also curious about sprint and the berserker: can you sprint and then blow up? Because that would be good with the infernal machine speed boost, and the choir damage boost. Lots to dispute, but you get the discount version because I want to eat breakfast instead. Two MAT 6 initials. Good luck hitting those DEF 14+ archons without boosting. Two P+S 18 attacks are worthless if you can’t hit. Why would you only allocate only 1 focus to a model you’re sending to deal with archons, or anything else? That’s a waste and stupid. The math doesn’t work out. The Berserker will usually die to retaliation yes, but why do your opponent’s job for them. Unstable doesn’t even force them to commit resources to dealing with the Berserker. The Dervish has Side Step and Parry all the time, not just feat turn. That is not trivial. Almost anything else is a better warjack than the Berserker. In fairness, Infernal Machine gives the Berserker Murderous, so it's hitting DEF 16 on average without boosts, so yeah I supposed one could surf a long a line of models in an effort to get a berserker into an archon and if it kills it, it mathematically made its points back. The problem is the enemy can literally just not make that happen by having the archon stay out of 10" of the berserker. and keep other models more than 3" away from it. Which for a Thamarite or Void archon should be easy enough. And I wonder if a berserker can even kill a Menite, Dhunian or Blight Archon if they have their ARM buffs on unless it spends focus. And you NEVER want to spend focus with them as you detailed, because even with their horrible defensive stats the enemy still has to commit something to removing a berserker that dug deep. So i suppose the only archons realistically falling prey to that are the primal or morrowan archons who are not run by Stryker1 or Maelok.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 4, 2020 15:41:30 GMT
So i bothered to do the math. On avergae a berserker under choir should do 4 damage per swing into a menite archon bunder RF. So it kills it with just initials.
If your opponent let you take out that archon in such a fashion.
Big IF.
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 17:53:53 GMT
I find the thought of “take the Berserker but don’t spend focus because it has to be killed” to be a bizarre line of thought, compared to “fuel a decent warjack and have it kill a bunch of stuff, and ALSO be annoying to remove.” Like...weird.
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Post by MacGuffin on Aug 4, 2020 18:32:03 GMT
I think the berserker strategy relies on free charges, thus freeing up a focus to purchase an additional axe attack. With free charges and/or an accuracy boost (Full Throttle, Vlad1's feat, boundless charge from Sorcha0), I think it can easily get 8 points of work done per turn. Outside of a battlegroup caster though, I agree that there are better choices. Furthermore, I'll admit that I am swayed by how nice the new model looks.
Also a 50% chance of nuking a zone with a POW 14 blast is corner-case useful.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 4, 2020 21:25:25 GMT
I find the thought of “take the Berserker but don’t spend focus because it has to be killed” to be a bizarre line of thought, compared to “fuel a decent warjack and have it kill a bunch of stuff, and ALSO be annoying to remove.” Like...weird. It kind of makes sense if you wouldn't be able to allocate focus anyway, like jackspam or jack marshaling. Well, I'm pretty sure that was at least part of the plan for it back in MK2; I remember that you could get some value out of them under the MOW Kovnik for example.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 4, 2020 22:35:00 GMT
I find the thought of “take the Berserker but don’t spend focus because it has to be killed” to be a bizarre line of thought, compared to “fuel a decent warjack and have it kill a bunch of stuff, and ALSO be annoying to remove.” Like...weird. It's the penultimate proof that being cheap does not always save you from being garbage. Frankly you could literally apply any of the buffs you can give a berserker to "make it work" to, say, a crusader or a marauder and get BETTER returns 100% of the time, because it doesn't blow up. And really what are 2-3 points compared to your jack not functioning properly because fluff? Or, you know, the aforementioned Dervish or Purifier, which dont hit has hard, but at some point you just have to realise that you won't turn a budget jack into a workhorse unless your name is Crusader.
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Post by mydnight on Aug 4, 2020 22:56:54 GMT
This tread has inspired me to play Vlad3 with 2 berserkers instead of my usual one. Imma going to chain infernal machine across both of them and give them full focus and sprint and side step them past the front line for some autohitting pwr 16 basically 5" explosive action, after having done their murderous duties.
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Post by Havock on Aug 5, 2020 0:30:58 GMT
If only you could ensure the boom.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 5, 2020 4:10:30 GMT
Not so much a budget choice but the Indictor might be pretty decent; It's fairly tough and It has an ability that synergizes well with sidestep and sprint. It forces your opponent to keep their caster (well, most of them) well away from it or screen very aggressively. Tack on Enliven and the thing can become a huge pain in the butt. I was going to chime in and recommend the Indictor also. It's 1 point more than the Juggernaut, and a roughly comparable beat stick, but you sure get a lot for that 1 point. The Consecration rule is easy to dismiss until you have one in your warcaster's face and he can't magic his way out of a thrashing. Oh, and in my opinion, the Indictor is also a damn good looking warjack. I thought it looked great and got one just to paint up. Then I saw it in use and realized I needed to get a second one.
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Post by Havock on Aug 5, 2020 5:37:52 GMT
I'd say it normally has trouble getting in the relevant places. But between IM, Sidestep and Vlad's feat that's less of an issue.
In theory.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Aug 5, 2020 7:40:51 GMT
In fairness, Infernal Machine gives the Berserker Murderous, so it's hitting DEF 16 on average without boosts That's not how this works. Using "average" rolls is a very bad way of seeing this. With Infernal Machine, a Berserker will hit DEF 16 62.5% of the time. That means it still has almost 40% chance of missing! So i bothered to do the math. On avergae a berserker under choir should do 4 damage per swing into a menite archon bunder RF. So it kills it with just initials. What kind of maths are you talking about? 4 damage per swing, 2 initials, and the Menite Archon has 15 boxes, this doesn't add up. According to BuyOrBoost, a charging Berserker (using its only focus point) under Battle and Infernal Machine has a 18.3% chance of killing a Menite Archon under Righteous Fury. Even without Righteous Fury it's only 49.8%.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 5, 2020 8:44:19 GMT
In fairness, Infernal Machine gives the Berserker Murderous, so it's hitting DEF 16 on average without boosts That's not how this works. Using "average" rolls is a very bad way of seeing this. With Infernal Machine, a Berserker will hit DEF 16 62.5% of the time. That means it still has almost 40% chance of missing! So i bothered to do the math. On avergae a berserker under choir should do 4 damage per swing into a menite archon bunder RF. So it kills it with just initials. What kind of maths are you talking about? 4 damage per swing, 2 initials, and the Menite Archon has 15 boxes, this doesn't add up. According to BuyOrBoost, a charging Berserker (using its only focus point) under Battle and Infernal Machine has a 18.3% chance of killing a Menite Archon under Righteous Fury. Even without Righteous Fury it's only 49.8%. Yeah with the first point i was being generous for the sake of argument. I don't really believe sending a berserker after archons is a good idea and your math just adds to that argument. The second point is actually me being tired af and thus mixing up the archons HP with its cost... Yes, you're absolutely right. This archon-killing Berserker idea is even worse. Thanks for cleaning up my mess!
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