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Post by Dev Null on Aug 4, 2020 22:20:03 GMT
The Stone is stupid, I totally agree with that. But not because reasons you mentioned. It's stupid because YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT.
... but for some time now scenarios are spread, and you can't play as a brick now. So most of the time your stone can't cover your army. Also I am not sure how many trolls games you have played but usually a stone is effective mostly vs range lists. Most of the time vs melee list when you clash with opponent he will first try to kill your stone to at least decrease range of it.
So I play a lot of lists without the stone. I'm not saying that to "prove" it's not necessary or something. I don't play competitively, and I'm not very good with Trolls yet, so maybe I'm an idiot for playing without the stone. Whatever; I'm still having fun. I will say this. Part of why I stopped playing with the stone are the reasons you mention. It's mostly effective vs. ranged. Scenarios are spread now, and it's very hard to play scenario and cover more than half your list with the stone. And if you do manage to cover your list, it's usually by putting the stone in danger. I'd add to that the power creep it feels like we've been seeing; 12/18 may not be enough to save your beasts, but let's face it, 12/20 often isn't enough anymore either. But I don't think you get to say "YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT" and then list a bunch of reasons why it doesn't work anymore. You can have one or the other, but not both. If it doesn't work well enough for you to pay for itself, then stop taking it. Problem solved.
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Post by gobber on Aug 5, 2020 4:09:21 GMT
I am not sure what you mean by dhunian archon healing your heavy... unless I miss something.
But that's also nice point that trolls currently have access to Dhunian Archon which of course boosts our infantry the most. What's even more funny is that you can play 2 of them only in theme which should be our WB list, and in our infantries lists you can play only 1. Beside that we have access to Primal Archon which is maybe fun, but comparing him to other Archons including new Blight Archon doesn't make sense.
Dhunian archon's healing ability triggers off a warrior dying but you can heal any multiwound model. In a list with a lot of multiwound infantry around I still find this ends up being used on your beasts more often than not. The dhunian archon needs to have have warrior models around to fuel the healing and occasionally jam up your enemy with threads of life, but a beast list has plenty of models to do this between the stone, whelps, possible runeshapers, and solos. Shepherd's call is helpful too. Anyway, while definitely a mix of both I feel like they do a bit more for beasts than infantry?
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Post by vasquez21 on Aug 5, 2020 6:04:34 GMT
I have played a lot of Trolls list, and have to agree that I also played some without the stone. But those list were mostly infantry shooting list where I was almost sure I will have problem to survive even with stone. For example list using: Full Pyg Bushwhackers 2x Trollkin Sluggers 2x Fire Eaters
But I don't remember any list based on WB that was not using Stone. If you have one I would love to see it. The only one I did but didn't have time to test it yet was my Doomy 2 list where there is a chance you will get Alpha, I build that list mostly to check if building such list (without stone) is possible. But let's say you are right, and we should now play without the stone... Then our WB are just trash That was my whole point that comparing them one vs one doesn't make sense, and the only argument you will hear is always the same "you have access to the stone".
We have the same with Rage on our Mauler. Having access to that animus everyone assume that you will be able to buff your whole army +3POW (when in reality you would be able to cast it max 2/3 times) not to even mention the fact that you should play Mauler (which I guess is our go to WB for melee) more safe than others, because when you lose him, you will lose a lot of firepower.
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Post by yeknomeht on Aug 5, 2020 8:38:43 GMT
I also play occasionally without the stone - usually with either stuff I want to spread out, or stuff that doesn't really benefit much from the stone. Kriel Company is quite a good place to play without a stone, with all the pygs, scattergunners etc. Admittedly if you're taking tanks, wagons and bombers/dozer, the stone is more tempting, and the elder effects can be nice, but it feels more like a choice to be made. In the other three themes it's almost always a question of 'min/max stone plus which elder?' unless you have a very cunning plan that needs those 9-12 points to work.
I disagree that the stone unit itself never contributes - it frequently in my games takes a few swings at contesting models (charging POW10-12 is usually enough to clear a bit of chaff, so long as MAT5 can hit...) and all you lose by charging is the opportunity to awaken the stone, and often late game I need to run the stone anyway to get the aura where it is needed in latest SR scenarios. Before the merc/minion slot got so crowded, I used to often run a gobber chef with the stone so beasts could Chomp a spare scribe for fury management, especially bombers... These days the slot gets gobbled up by something else like an archon or Boomy2/3 unless I can only afford 1pt!
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 5, 2020 12:09:35 GMT
But let's say you are right, and we should now play without the stone... Then our WB are just trash That was my whole point that comparing them one vs one doesn't make sense, and the only argument you will hear is always the same "you have access to the stone". Most "basic" heavies have around 30 as the sum of their DEF+ARM. You could argue that 12/18 is the worst of both worlds because DEF 12 isn't super hard to hit and ARM 18 isn't super hard to break, and you probably wouldn't be wrong, but the fact remains that Trollbloods aren't particularly worse off than other factions. Protectorate has 10/19 heavies, Cryx 13/17 or 12/18, Cygnar 12/18 or 11/19, Legion gets 11/18 (12/18 after CID) or 14/16 (Angelius at ARM 17 is actually the exception), Circle gets 12/18 (19 on the Riphorn) or 14/17 (16 on the Feral), etc. The point is that the stat lines are comparable to other people's toys, and Trolls have the option to add the stone for extra hitting power, durability or other tools. But if you take it, you do commit yourself to a bit of a bricky play style, though it could be argued that you could take certain units/models to deal with the flanks. When you build a Warbeast list intended to alpha hard, I can see a case being made to not have the stone and take an extra beast for the points. Will your mediocre stat lines get hit hard in retaliation? Most likely, but that's why alpha lists are usually designed to deal as much damage as possible, or to alpha on the wave of a strong attrition feat, so it's more difficult to retaliate effectively. Are Trollblood Warbeasts (slightly) overcosted? Maybe, but many of them also have access to native Regeneration, which is also nothing to sneeze at.
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Post by mandra on Aug 5, 2020 12:29:24 GMT
Agree that we have more or less the same stat of other factions, IMHO we lack in power, in particular, the POW of our light beasts is low for the points, have bonus only on living models. Take exemple from the menoth dervish, 7pt. X2 attack pow 13 or 1POW 17 or more if you buff the str. The same is with our battle engines, more or less same stat of others, same cost, but absolutely low power output, fewer attacks and short range and not more survivability.
I think the CID will be good but couldn't solve all troll's problems, maybe they want mark our faction even more as a good infantry faction(both melee and ranged). After seeing boomhowler3 fast infantry could also make the stone less relevant in some lists, but this is only my 50cent.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Aug 5, 2020 15:24:23 GMT
I think that the 15 pt. rage tax for our beasts just kind of feels bad. If we either didn't need rage, or had rage (or an alternative damage boost Animus) on a cheaper beast I think it would be better.
Like if the Axer had rage instead of rush, I'd be okay with it at 10 pts.
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Post by gobber on Aug 6, 2020 0:46:26 GMT
Like if the Axer had rage instead of rush, I'd be okay with it at 10 pts. That'd be cool. Would be nice to keep rush in faction though it could be moved to another light. Possibly the night troll? Already has a threat extender animus but Rush would be far more reliable.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Aug 6, 2020 1:09:27 GMT
Like if the Axer had rage instead of rush, I'd be okay with it at 10 pts. That'd be cool. Would be nice to keep rush in faction though it could be moved to another light. Possibly the night troll? Already has a threat extender animus but Rush would be far more reliable. Night troll would be interesting with rush, would definitely see play then. I don't know what I'd put on the Mauler though... amuck maybe? Excessive healing would be amazing but almost definitely too good in trolls.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Aug 6, 2020 6:43:32 GMT
Give my Trollblood warbeasts access to a non-character light-WB source for Primal (Gorax clone) or an alternate MAT/Damage buff, even if only for 'Target FF light warbeast'. An option like that would grant players the capability to buff other light WBs and squeeze performance out of them as first line attackers, against higher DEF infantrymachine, or pinpoint attacks on hard targets. Currently, most TB light warbeasts roles are quite singular, damage performance significantly hampered, and do not mesh well with the points intensive support play of traditional KSB/SSE, whelps, Archon, Fell Caller, Brug, Boomie2/3, etc. Sad, really, because our lights are quite handsome on the battlefield!
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Aug 6, 2020 14:52:43 GMT
Give my Trollblood warbeasts access to a non-character light-WB source for Primal (Gorax clone) or an alternate MAT/Damage buff, even if only for 'Target FF light warbeast'. An option like that would grant players the capability to buff other light WBs and squeeze performance out of them as first line attackers, against higher DEF infantrymachine, or pinpoint attacks on hard targets. Currently, most TB light warbeasts roles are quite singular, damage performance significantly hampered, and do not mesh well with the points intensive support play of traditional KSB/SSE, whelps, Archon, Fell Caller, Brug, Boomie2/3, etc. Sad, really, because our lights are quite handsome on the battlefield! He's named Ragnor and Rok.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Aug 6, 2020 14:59:47 GMT
Give my Trollblood warbeasts access to a non-character light-WB source for Primal (Gorax clone) or an alternate MAT/Damage buff, even if only for 'Target FF light warbeast'. An option like that would grant players the capability to buff other light WBs and squeeze performance out of them as first line attackers, against higher DEF infantrymachine, or pinpoint attacks on hard targets. Currently, most TB light warbeasts roles are quite singular, damage performance significantly hampered, and do not mesh well with the points intensive support play of traditional KSB/SSE, whelps, Archon, Fell Caller, Brug, Boomie2/3, etc. Sad, really, because our lights are quite handsome on the battlefield! He's named Ragnor and Rok. The very first sentence of the post you quoted says "non-character" right in it.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Aug 6, 2020 15:22:07 GMT
Okay? I'll shall go crucify myself on your behalf for such an outrageous act. Thought the smiley face was enough to indicate the light heartedness of it, I was mistaken.
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