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Post by vasquez21 on Jul 23, 2020 12:32:01 GMT
So we currently are having CID for Legion... and looking what is going there and comparing that to trolls, I have to said I am a little frustrated. I have never before compared models 1 to 1 comparing their costs. But I did that after they just bump def of Carnivean and Proteus to 12...
Also looking at Archangel and comparing him to Glacier King (which is closest to what Archangel offers) I have to say I am sad panda now.
I know that design team for Trollbloods need to remember about stone, but to be honest I would be grateful if they get rid off it, or change aura completely. Because right now we are forced to play only brick, if we don't want to be annihilated also I don't feel that playing Stone is option, you are just forced to play with it everywhere (almost). And taking into account that in current scenario it's sometimes more complicated to be coherent it's even more frustrating.
I think our WB are really bad comparing to other factions.
If they would allow me to exchange points which are using my warbeasts for troops, I would exchange all of them without any regret, and I just think that shouldn't be the case.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Jul 23, 2020 13:13:44 GMT
I feel you man.
TB is just the worst faction in the game right now. And I really doubt the next CID is gonna change that.
I agree about the stone. Too expensive, bricks are bad in SR19 and everything is taxed off of it. Same goes with tough, one of the worst/most hated(?) abilities in the game.
The key to fixing Warbeasts is their animus in my opinion. Give elemental troll lights their non-self animi back and I would start to use them.
Troopmachine is back, better just get used to it I guess, haha...
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Post by vasquez21 on Jul 23, 2020 13:21:42 GMT
Yeah I don't even mentione Light Warbeast... we have Axer and we are using him just for Animi... if this would be on Beast for 18 points or 6 points, still it would be must because of how slow our army is, just as we are forced to play Mauler in most of our lists. Impaler is joke, and from others I used to just pick Pyre troll just to light up my Fire Eaters... so using 8 point model to make better a 7 point unit Most other maybe excluding (Bouncer) are just unplayable unless you want some specific build using for example Cold dmg, but let's face it this are all at least medicore beasts.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Jul 23, 2020 14:26:02 GMT
Exactly! Rage tax is stupid. Rush is useless since no TB beast (besides Mulg) can kill a heavy without Rage. Fire Eaters can't do sh** without fire = taxed just to do what they do. So many bad rules, it's gonna take way more than a cautious reduce-by-1point-here-and-there-CID to fix the faction. Not even previous TB Dynamic Update did anything substantial Hope the new stuff/farrow theme is OP? haha, saaaadface...
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Post by mydnight on Jul 23, 2020 22:22:13 GMT
I'm fine with trolls requiring comboing and synergy to work, but we deserve discounts rather than taxes to make up for that.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 1, 2020 20:19:22 GMT
This happens all the time. In short you are wrong. 12/18 is a statline. Many faction have this statline. Trolls COULD add +2 arm. This is so ridiculous that everybody takes the stone. Cygnar gets 1(!)arcane shield maybe 2. Mercs, pigs, legion (imba 12/18 carnevian for 18(!)points) get nothing. Circle has 14/nothing, Khador protectorate or dwarfs have 10/20, not 12/20 - important difference. Cyriss has 11/18, elfs have shields and low arm. Grymkin have 13/16 and 10/19 on their heavies. They have a better stone - def wise - with no bonus effects. The clockatrice is 13/18 and over the top and everybody knows (including pp). That's one def more than Troll heavies after stone. Infantry stats compare very well to other factions and then they get +2 arm and also +1 str/no cont/no stealth or incoporeal (absolutely stupid good!).
Please refer to "you are wrong the stone is too good" from trollock in this forum. Or bankys commentary after winning with Trolls in 2018(?). I don't have links off my head here but the basis was: the stone is stupid good, the normal elder is stupid good. If you want to win a tournament take full stone and regular elder.
If Trolls are sooooo bad, I would advice you to play these "horribly imba factions" (maybe as proxy) and see why the stone is so good. It's not a tax. It is a bonus that you can take in addition and you do because it is so good, not because you must. Beleive me, go to a tournament (maybe after covid 19...) run the stone with anti stealth and say - no you don't have stealth on this important piece and if you start picking on my stone this dhunian archon is healing my heavy back to full.
Play this:
War Room Army
Trollblood - Grissel 2
Theme: Kriel Company 75 / 75 Army
Observatory - Steamroller Objective
Grissel Bloodsong, Marshal of the Kriels - WB: +27 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15
Ledfoot & Tredz - PC: 7 Boomhowler, Solo Artist - PC: 0 Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 4 General 'Thunderstone' Brug - PC: 0
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3 Sons of Bragg - Wrathar, Tor & Rhudd: 9 Pyg Burrowers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
THEME: Kriel Company ---
Or this: War Room Army
Trollblood - madrak 1
Theme: Band of Heroes 75 / 75 Army
Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain - WB: +29 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 0 Dhunian Archon - PC: 0 Stone Scribe Chronicler - PC: 4 Trollkin Skinner - PC: 3
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3 Trollkin Champions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Skaldi Bonehammer - PC: 5 Trollkin Fennblades - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer - Officer & Drummer: 5 Trollkin Long Riders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 12
THEME: Band of Heroes ---
Trolls are not in a bad spot. It's just that nobody (other than John henry Jr) writes fesh lists and everybody knows how to deal with double bear northkin stuff. KC is gold right now. And Band of Heros is the one that actually wins you tourneys.
Go out and explore, experiment, put stuff on the table. Look at the other site of the fence. Learn how they need to fertilize their grass for it to be green. Enjoy life and warmachine. And then stop complaining really.
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Post by michael on Aug 1, 2020 21:33:58 GMT
Snoozer is correct. In addition to what snoozer said: reading Lormahordes, it’s quite interesting to learn that every single faction is the worst faction in the game. But, Trollbloods, for reals: “We’ve gotten nothing but good releases for years and our faction was riding high before that, but somehow after years of good releases and a huge win in the Oblivion theme rebalance, now our faction sucks!” C’mon, people.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 1, 2020 21:39:25 GMT
Just one more thing: to be fair our "normal" lights are 1-2pts too expensive. Just compare impale axer and bouncer with the more recent northkin lights. You take axer because of animus only. The other elemental lights are slowly getting there, one by one. Also the stone could be a point less per min/max opting for 10 pts with elder. This is still not the difference between unplayable and strong.
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Post by michael on Aug 1, 2020 22:03:06 GMT
Just one more thing: to be fair our "normal" lights are 1-2pts too expensive. Just compare impale axer and bouncer with the more recent northkin lights. You take axer because of animus only. The other elemental lights are slowly getting there, one by one. Also the stone could be a point less per min/max opting for 10 pts with elder. This is still not the difference between unplayable and strong. I agree. You guys still gotta pay for Evolutionary Elementalism for a while longer. It’s only fair.
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Post by moridamn on Aug 2, 2020 15:41:21 GMT
Yeah, I never understood the whinging on here about our stats. I played Menoth before this and the same thing happens over there, except the choir tax. Our stats are fine. Hell, I win local tourneys on occasion with trollbloods and people would complain about our stats being miles ahead of anything they can bring.
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Post by mandra on Aug 2, 2020 17:47:05 GMT
Yeah, I never understood the whinging on here about our stats. I played Menoth before this and the same thing happens over there, except the choir tax. Our stats are fine. Hell, I win local tourneys on occasion with trollbloods and people would complain about our stats being miles ahead of anything they can bring. I switched for menoth and played mono warjacks lists, I literally smash my opponents even if I lose..with troll beasts is the opposite haha.. However I really like troll models(they are still my main army)and honestly think they need improvement.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 2, 2020 18:11:07 GMT
Yeah, I never understood the whinging on here about our stats. I played Menoth before this and the same thing happens over there, except the choir tax. Our stats are fine. Hell, I win local tourneys on occasion with trollbloods and people would complain about our stats being miles ahead of anything they can bring. I switched for menoth and played mono warjacks lists, I literally smash my opponents even if I lose..with troll beasts is the opposite haha.. However I really like troll models(they are still my main army)and honestly think they need improvement. Play the madrak list, grind your opponent to tears and enjoy
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Post by mandra on Aug 2, 2020 18:35:24 GMT
Haha thank you! You think bushwakers will shine in the next future?
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 2, 2020 19:10:46 GMT
Haha thank you! You think bushwakers will shine in the next future? Yes. If you can get a hold of a unit for cheap get it. I am also looking around for a unit. No guarantee, but the new solo brugg is really hardcore for them. Turn 1 you run them and then he digs in the whole unit! Turn 2 you aim (use Grim2 feat or gunny for snipe) and use his eyless sight +2 pow combo with potential mark target and vet leader! The UA is useless for this strategy tough. All they need is for them to also revive rat5 like the other pygs!
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Post by vasquez21 on Aug 4, 2020 14:12:01 GMT
snoozer thank you for your post, I was on short holidays, so I am answering late but still would like to have nice conversation Yes. The only problem is that you NEED to take it. That's not even a option... you just have to have it, that's it. And you also don't get it for free it's 12 points for unit which in addition to aura is doing absolutely nothing. Also if you check my post again, you will see that my point was that it would be better for trolls if Stone would be removed completely and that was my main point.
I don't want to analyze faction by faction your comparison because it would take a lot of time. But even in that sentence you are not honest with yourself.
I am playing Trolls and Khador mostly but I see the difference when I am paying for let's say Brawler 12/18, mat 6, 2x17 pow (16 points) vs Marauder 10/20, mat 7, 2x16 (11 points).
Also my comment regarding Carnivean was about his CID where he cost 17 points. But I definitely wouldn't call him IMBA. I have played also Legion a little, and it had problem to get into the list sometimes, but the reason is not because he is bad, but because Legion has even better warbeasts for similar cost, and I was just comparing to him, as a base example. Also with his animus he is 12/20. Beside that I think that Legion has much more ways to increase armor on WB, to the level not achievable by trolls.
That's totally true. That's also reason why currently you have to play infantry based lists. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about WB. Please look at Trolls results in last 2 years
The Stone is stupid, I totally agree with that. But not because reasons you mentioned. It's stupid because YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT.
I didn't read article by trollock, but I am sure it was written long time ago, if not... then in my opinion he is just wrong. Stone is very versatile, gives a lot of answers, and that's totally accurate, but for some time now scenarios are spread, and you can't play as a brick now. So most of the time your stone can't cover your army. Also I am not sure how many trolls games you have played but usually a stone is effective mostly vs range lists. Most of the time vs melee list when you clash with opponent he will first try to kill your stone to at least decrease range of it.
It's of course very good in infantry lists, but when you play some list based on WB mostly, then it's very hard to place stone in safe position and also affecting your army.
Wrong.
As I said I mostly play Trollbloods and Khador but I also have some list for other factions: Protectorate, Cephalynx, Minions. I was also able to play some games with my friend borrowed Legion. And I would be honest that I don't think that Trollbloods are very bad right now, but I think that our WB sucks a lot.
If you will find some successful list of Trolls then there is almost no chance it would be build around beasts.
I was attending tournaments before Covid, but still it was mostly infantry based lists. I am not sure what you mean by dhunian archon healing your heavy... unless I miss something.
But that's also nice point that trolls currently have access to Dhunian Archon which of course boosts our infantry the most. What's even more funny is that you can play 2 of them only in theme which should be our WB list, and in our infantries lists you can play only 1. Beside that we have access to Primal Archon which is maybe fun, but comparing him to other Archons including new Blight Archon doesn't make sense.
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