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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 4, 2020 10:48:26 GMT
My only gripe coming out of the CiD is that Belthane1, hex hunters and Minion spellcasters don't really gel together. I tried on the virtual table and it just didn't work out.
There was a lot of feedback on hex hunters in the final few days, so I'm hoping something comes of that (like apparition, SPD7 or a Bayal spell range boosting mini-feat), but for now I'm happy with Belthane1 just having herself, BFS and Yssylla benefit from her feat.
Cheers, Dave
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Aug 4, 2020 11:00:56 GMT
sorokinThat's kinda my point - why include it in the first place then, if it's too overwhelming to give a decent overhaul anyway? But I get your point, can't win in every area. Most (if not all?) got rules changes as well besides point drop but mainly the Nephilim Protector. Super meh imo. A lot of other stuff as well: Carnivean Hex Hunters Annyssa Proteus Azrael But maybe they are better than I think, time will tell.
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Post by copperflame on Aug 4, 2020 14:30:35 GMT
The Protector started as a pure defensive but pricy piece. Then, the concern was that he was too good at protecting and nothing else... so they changed him (not for the better).
I know he has a big axe... but who cares if he can't do his job? Note - he has strong competition for his job from Valkyries. As long as he can do that, I'm all for anything extra. I would not mind (at all) the +1 Strength that was suggested. Or take the crit knockdown from the Bloodseer and give it to the Protector. I'm sure there are other suggestions that can be offered.
I should have made this part of the thread into its own post. >.>
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 4, 2020 19:06:57 GMT
The Protector started as a pure defensive but pricy piece. Then, the concern was that he was too good at protecting and nothing else... so they changed him (not for the better). I know he has a big axe... but who cares if he can't do his job? Note - he has strong competition for his job from Valkyries. As long as he can do that, I'm all for anything extra. I would not mind (at all) the +1 Strength that was suggested. Or take the crit knockdown from the Bloodseer and give it to the Protector. I'm sure there are other suggestions that can be offered. I should have made this part of the thread into its own post. >.> The Valkyries are effective at range, thrice the number of shield guards and don't require caster support to function. real stiff competition. I wouldn't mind if most shield guard beasts were upgraded to being x2 shield guards, the field's flooded with them anyway.
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Post by drakkenblut on Aug 5, 2020 16:13:41 GMT
I always thought Guard Dog made the Protector worthwhile. It is a double Tenacity (all the more important since there is no more Tenacity), yet it leaves the Warlock with an option for another Animus!
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 6, 2020 8:30:42 GMT
I find it interesting that one of the most asked for changes was giving the protector safeguard back. Now it's got safeguard back and people also want a points decrease and +1 STR. Reach out one finger and you guys wanna take the entire hand.
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Post by copperflame on Aug 6, 2020 13:50:47 GMT
I find it interesting that one of the most asked for changes was giving the protector safeguard back. Now it's got safeguard back and people also want a points decrease and +1 STR. Reach out one finger and you guys wanna take the entire hand. Sure, sounds greedy but what shook out was even with Safeguard back - Neph Protector was still lacking. He was considered as an over-priced protection piece back in MK2 too. But in MK2, there was still enough justification to take him here or there. I am unsure why his rules changed with MK3. I assumed it was that he didn't allow enough counter play but while that looks great on paper, the actual play experience (tourny or otherwise) did not support that. So, now we got Safeguard back and restored him to MK2 status. With that, you would assume that the Neph Protector would be in the same situational niche. But things have changed (Valkyries are the most evident but I'm sure you could go further into this). I don't think it is greedy at all. I think it just makes it viable (in today's state of the game).
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 6, 2020 14:17:02 GMT
I find it interesting that one of the most asked for changes was giving the protector safeguard back. Now it's got safeguard back and people also want a points decrease and +1 STR. Reach out one finger and you guys wanna take the entire hand. Sure, sounds greedy but what shook out was even with Safeguard back - Neph Protector was still lacking. He was considered as an over-priced protection piece back in MK2 too. But in MK2, there was still enough justification to take him here or there. I am unsure why his rules changed with MK3. I assumed it was that he didn't allow enough counter play but while that looks great on paper, the actual play experience (tourny or otherwise) did not support that. So, now we got Safeguard back and restored him to MK2 status. With that, you would assume that the Neph Protector would be in the same situational niche. But things have changed (Valkyries are the most evident but I'm sure you could go further into this). I don't think it is greedy at all. I think it just makes it viable (in today's state of the game). Yeah that makes sense. And frankly it's a good attitude to have given how cagey they are with buffs to living warbeast, who, as we all know are not in a good place right now for the most part. It worked with the angelius, lets hope they pull a buff out of their hats during internal testing.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 6, 2020 14:19:58 GMT
I find it interesting that one of the most asked for changes was giving the protector safeguard back. Now it's got safeguard back and people also want a points decrease and +1 STR. Reach out one finger and you guys wanna take the entire hand. I both agree and don't. People ask for the moon during CID --> enter powercreep. The defensive buff it gives isn't as good as it ones was (so many hitfixers these days), beasts around are getting cheaper. It just got worse and worse with each CID cycle (like so many entries). Whether the new animus and safeguard compensate for that is doubtful.
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Aug 6, 2020 15:52:35 GMT
I think the changes help for the protectors niche role and the extra changes requested were to try to open it up past that a little. It’s just hard to spend points on a light, especially with how easy it is to go support heavy with Legion as is.
It also doesn’t help that the bloodseer still competes and is often a better contesting piece.
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Post by josephkerr on Aug 7, 2020 18:33:40 GMT
The protector doesn’t take legion buffs well and is often competing with the superior farrow valkyries and the significant production upgrade of the raek and the teraph. With those two getting better in cid and valkyries arguably remaining better than the protector, it makes sense to address it aggressively. But I remember mk2 and carrying a shredder with me because it was in every list, so whatever compromise they settle on I hope it’s not the new Shredder and I have to paint it.
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Post by voidbender on Aug 8, 2020 14:39:17 GMT
Independent of shield guard, I think guard dog plus safeguard is a pretty aggressive measure in a game where assassination is a primary win/loss condition. I think it's already worth taking with aggressive warlocks like Rhyas/twins and maybe Thag2.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 8, 2020 20:16:24 GMT
yes and no
casterkill is always dicy and the least predictable of the 3 win conditions (attrition/scenario/assassination)
most competitive lists can favorably and reliably face legion on attrition and scenario. I can't remember a game for the past 2 years were my opponent knew what they were doing, and seriously considered an assassination against me. they just know they're going to win eventually on attrition or scenario.
most assassination attempts I faced in Legion were from less experienced players, and because I bullied them into it by playing my own warlock far too aggressively (usually because the matchup was just horrible on attrition) and just left them with the temptation of an assassination or being killed themselves on the next turn (good players just ran they wardudes in the opposite direction, even killboxing themselves, and tabled my army in 2~3 turns).
thus, for me, the unfavorable equation of the protector in mk3 remains.
as a shield guard it is unfavorably facing Valkyries, and the fact that overall legion cost so much and struggle so much on attrition that I can't afford to invest 9pts in a cost inefficient protective model.
its other tech is now looking better. +2def in melee and no kd on our front line warlocks looks good.
however the no kd animus is self, and thus costly to cast on our warlock. basically trade a transfert for no kd. might be good in some situations but not always, so, again, I will invest those points in models that are always good.
also, its facing sprint from golab, for those same frontend warlocks. golab is our best heavy by far, and sprint is globally more interesting on those same warlocks that could want a protector (the only time no kd will be better, will be when bullying by over exposing your warlock, and that's really a desperate move, and nowaday you're probably better retreating and threatening a +4" charge on next turn). casting both animi will be hard on transferts and nearly impossible for some. so do you take golab (+ hermit) or protector for your melee warlock ?
a positive evolution is that now all our lists will include an archon animus bot, casting slipstream and fullsteam in stead of our melee warlocks, freeing precious furies (and activation problems) for them to do their offensive work. those furies could be invested in the no-kd animus sometimes. however I would probably rather just have a few extras attacks before my sprint.
so basically, for me the place of the protector has not changed much: - eabsy probably can use one since she can make it do some work offensively with alpha hunter and feat, will have the fury to cast animus now that she has an archon, and can repos herself without sprint. however raeks are 6pts now. I can't remember losing a game on assassination with her, and she doesn't want shield guards outside of facing moros (which she shouldn't face anyway) - my precious twins will probably just continue with golab and hermit since this combo is awesome, and losing rhyas is acceptable anyway. - my prhyas already took the protector sometimes... and always regretted it because it's lacking too much on the offensive side and she needs every bit of offense in her lists since she doesn't buff anything anyway. shield guards are good when facing gunlines (rhyas is usually my gunline drop, don't ask me why) but then I'd rather have 3. also she tends to sprint too far away for guard dog after her feat turn (the protector is still spd5 without pathfinder so it just can't follow her) - ehtags... looks like a good candidate for protector. def14/16 looks good to buff with nokd, and manifest might see the protector killing a grunt in melee some days. pary looks good with flight too. never found the points for it however (he's very low on points) and this is not going to change now that I need an archon in the list. anyway arm22 sprinting ethags will his whole fury free to buy ps18 attacks doesn't really need guard dog or nokd to be awesome. he himself doesn't need shield guard for nasty attacks like moros, since sac pawn is always better. - Betty1 will probably need to go into melee less and has always been tanky enough anyway. and again, very low warbeasts points means she can't afford (see a trend here ?). - betty2 might use it since she can play aggro in melee herself, and on the feat turn it's not a bad boxes stock (still less efficient than free harriers though)
also, really, they stupidly put the raek at 6pts you know. this kinda ends the discussion on "which light beast should I spend my last couple of points on" anyway. 6pts raek just terminated all lessers outside mecshred, and all other light beasts. pretty shitty move imo.
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Post by voidbender on Aug 9, 2020 2:06:28 GMT
One benefit of guard dog and safeguard over sprint is that it let's you position aggressively the turn before you go in. It serves a different purpose.
I feel about the same regarding it with eThag. It could be good with him depending on the build. I'll probably also use it with the twins for aggressive positioning. eAbby is an interesting thought. I'll definitely try that, though I will always think "that's 2.5 shredders..."
You're probably right about the raeks except maybe with eAbby. The shredder still hits harder with flank, and for 50% cheaper. The raek is just so much more mobile and survivable though...
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Post by copperflame on Aug 10, 2020 15:12:44 GMT
Hmmm... IF the Raek stays at 6points..
Do you think it is too good for 6points? Or is it cost appropriately - and the issue is that the other options are not cost appropriated?
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