thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 15, 2020 17:18:59 GMT
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Post by davycannonhound on Jul 15, 2020 23:29:54 GMT
I'm literally screaming. All of this is incredible. Just disappointed the Afflictor didn't get some love. Would have happily traded the Afflictor for the Raek.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jul 16, 2020 3:20:56 GMT
Looks like Bethayne and the virtues will pretty much hard counter The Exalted. Blight Archon looks extremely strong on paper, but with the lesser tax (at the very least) it's not as spammable as the other archons. Crimson Ballet makes the fliers seem a bit more attractive? Maybe just a Harrier? Impending Doom can potentially allow for some really ugly combos.
Bethayne2 looks like an absolute nightmare for infantry, but seeing as Archons are the newest hotness I don't know how relevant that'll be. Pretty cool to see Hordes finally has an answer to Karchev.
I like the new rules on the swordsmen CA a lot. I think that's what a CA should primarily do - give a unit more options and more flexibility. Not sure if the unit needed Blade Shield, but hey, CID is all about that power creep. If I look at the Ellowuyr unit in comparison I feel like they're strictly inferior to them now (if they weren't already).
The new rules on the legionnaires look decent, giving them Battle Driven gives them a more distinct identity. They hold up pretty well compared to DG Sentinels, if you consider the price tag. I'm not very impressed with Farilor, feels like a bit of an odd choice to make his minifeat battle line rather than keep Iron Zeal for the arm skew. I've learned the hard way you can't ignore def 14, but I feel they're still going to eat shit from most dedicated anti infantry tech. I don't know enough about the game and especially the current meta to make those kinds of call though. I'm honestly not sure how 12/22 compares to 14/19 with no-KD. Still, with battle driven + vengeance you want to make the unit as fat as possible.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jul 16, 2020 13:10:10 GMT
Betty1 drops her awesome feat to get her old mk2 meh feat, and it does not work on throne either. Hype hype
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Post by copperflame on Jul 16, 2020 21:35:00 GMT
Incoming data dump - initial reactions to Week1 CID
New Models:
B2 – too much to think through to form an opinion yet
Blighted Archon – I'm worried about total cost (w/ BG)
Virtue Host – need to test
Virtue Champion – same
Yssylla – 2 spells a turn just sounds awesome, must test
Legacy Models:
Kryssa – I can’t wait to try out the new rules, they sound awesome.
B1&B – Wow, I can’t wait to play this version!
Blackfrost Shard – I like the change, it addresses one of the larger concerns (survivability). It does give a bit of high risk/high reward playstyle… that I like. Does it do enough for 9 points? Need to test.
Archers – I love the simplification here!
Hex Hunters&Bayal – WOOT!!!
Swordmen&CA – I am ecstatic to test Blade Shield (maybe with Blightbringer or Fyanna). The changes to the Abbot is awesome, allowing his prayers to meet the needs of the battlefield – LOVE it.
Legionnaires&Farilor – I like the changes on paper, they make sense.
Annyssa – I like it, love this model.
Craelix – same as above.
Archangel – thank you for dropping the random rate of fire. I know that creates some interesting variance to a model but like most have stated, that randomness on such an expensive model is not as fun.
Azrael – while I would LOVE for Az’s animus to change, I need to test it with the new Teraph before pushing for that. I do very much like the drop in cost because he was very expensive (and I love the model’s looks).
Zuriel – sorry guys, Big Z needs more than just a point drop. Please consider Dual Attack (even if its an animus) and maybe some changes past that. The rules of the model don’t work together at all.
Neph Protector – point drop is good… but I don’t think it is the only thing that needs to change. The animus is not good at all for what this model needs to do and it has to compete with Valkyries.
Protus – I like the changes but I think maybe we are missing the core issue of the Def/Arm stat lines.
Carnivean – same as above… I like the changes but 11/18 is what we have been having issues with.
Angelius – This is very welcomed. I would rather see some simplification for the tail attack in order to make it straight AP rather than keeping the clunky rules. The price drop is very needed and thank you. I just would like to see it simplified.
Raek – Awesome, love these guys and I always find myself passing them over due to cost.
Teraph – Best.. for… Last!!! I have been asking for this forever… now K2 has a best new best friend!!!!
Not Featured: No Lessers... big miss No Neph Solider... same
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 18, 2020 15:37:02 GMT
Blight Archon is Fury5? And it has no limitations as to what goes in its battlegroup?
Holy excrement... it may be better than some casters out there... and FA is 2...
Unbelievable.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jul 19, 2020 9:18:43 GMT
Blight Archon is Fury5? And it has no limitations as to what goes in its battlegroup? Holy excrement... it may be better than some casters out there... and FA is 2... Unbelievable. Yeah but that also means two archons + battlegroups will take up a lot of points for roughly 6 models total, limiting what else you can bring in your list.
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 19, 2020 13:04:46 GMT
Another detail, there is no new Beast this time around, I guess it is OK, we got the MekanoShredder and other Hordes factions got no beast as well.
BUT: I feel we are due a huge base. All the CIDs for other Hordes included a huge base (bearwagon for trolls, oversized ancestor for Skorne and a fly spring for Druids). Since those are BlackForge editions, dare we hope for something 120mm Legion?
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 19, 2020 13:07:16 GMT
Neph Protector unde rGuard Dog ability specifically states "its Warlock" - since Lesser Warlock is not a Warlock, no Guard Dog for the Archon. PP, if it had stated "Battlegroup Controller" I would have bought two Protectors.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jul 19, 2020 14:32:16 GMT
Yeah but that also means two archons + battlegroups will take up a lot of points for roughly 6 models total, limiting what else you can bring in your list. but it also reduces the need for a forsaken under a good chunk of casters (I guess,must admit I haven't taken inventory on that one) basically handing you a freebee. I think it's bonkers good. I think the archers will be very problematic ones you tack on buffs. And I think B2's feat is just too much of a hassle to be fun and asks for a type of counterplay that is potentially far too niche. Maybe the archers will stay this way, I think they should drop repo. I expect the Archon to be toned down and the B2 feat to be reworked.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jul 19, 2020 16:38:36 GMT
Yeah Archers seem real good now, especially with all the ranged damage buff/ARM debuffs legion has now. They themselves didnt even change that much. The ammo porter is literally just not a waste of space now and repo 3 isnt setting the world on fire in a vacuum either.
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Post by davycannonhound on Jul 19, 2020 16:46:58 GMT
My biggest disappointment is that the lessers didn't make an appearance, the afflictor didn't make an appearance, and the nephilim soldier didn't make an appearance. Maybe we can all lobby for those to be added? Lol
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Post by copperflame on Jul 20, 2020 14:11:13 GMT
So far... Kryssa works as intended, so that is great. B1, less so... many have suggested adding Thrones to her feat would help.
Annyssa is still missing out a bit, if they drop her one more point (willing to sacrifice Vet Leader cause it doesn't do much for the model anyway) - she could be free in certain theme/lists. I hope so cause I would love to use her again.
Plenty of talk about Zuriel - hopefully we'll see a change. *fingers crossed*
Likewise, I've seen talk about Carnivean(s) - but it would impact models "outside" the CID so I don't know if it would happen.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jul 21, 2020 0:34:45 GMT
So. B1 got her whole feat back at least, and can be played with throne d'oh. She still has the shitty disintegrate but at least now she's not bound to cast it every turn to help her list. I'll probably just ignore it except maybe on feat turn. Deceleration is decent I guess but the gunlines are pretty much dead already ? against curcible or the like I guess it should help IDK.
Annyssa and Zuriel got (small) buffs that imho will not work the way they think at all. Annyssa will not charge more with her sword but at least she can make decent free strikes now, and with pary she isn't afraid to repos into melee with something in late game. She can always move free again if she survives. With 18" pary move she should be decent at tying up some models during the last turns. Zuriel won't work more against infantry. RAT6 POW12 is shitty against infantries who have either def16 or arm 20 and multiple boxes. He could see some work into tharn profiles but he's far too costly to trade anyway. On the other hand, RAT6 and one spray in melee more or less free of orientation is even better for casterkill and key support sniping. He'll work even better with Kallus2 I guess, which is the last list I'm considering him into.
DEF12 on carni chassi is... meh. DEF12 ARM18 still dies to unbuffed 13pts infantry units (we know, it's the profile of Azrael, and he does die as soon as he make contact lol, even with unyielding). does not change much from DEF11. ARM19 would have been a significant change but they won't consider it. Oh well, at least our most decent and played heavy, the carni gained some cool stuff and a slight point reduction. The ravagore is still pretty much dead, especially considering the new teraph now out-techs it, and virtues are cheaper to effectively spam scathers.
BFS finally got the unbinding they deserved. With all their rules changes they are at least worth their points as a support unit now. I wish we could say the same of the seraph.
Angelius... got side step somehow. Kinda amazing that a model can be 17pts for 6 years and then suddenly drop 2pts and gain side step... Gotta to wonder how this stuff is priced in their mind. Ability to Armor Pierce after a first side step, then another side step with possibly repulse, sprint or refuge. This kind of move was deemed too powerfull at the start of mk3, now it's made even more silly and cheaper ? Power creep anyone.
When I see all the models that just revert to mk2 rules and then some, I can't help to think that we were due a Skorne-level rework since the beginning of mk3, except we're getting it piecemeal, one fourth of the faction at a time. See you in 3 years for the Vayls/Saeryn/Lessers/Pot.
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Post by copperflame on Jul 21, 2020 15:17:42 GMT
I don't have much of a meta here so I don't know if gunlines are dead or not. But the B1 + Thrones w/ Deceleration looks great on paper to me.
Annyssa is a disappointment for me. I would gladly drop all the melee options granted for -1 point cost (and Vet Leader isn't useful either, trade it in to help make it more fair). If she can get down to 6points, she can be free options in lists. Would that really be that OP, if at all?
Zuriel at least works now. What would you suggest as further changes? Point cost reduction or just up the POW of the spray or something completely different? My vote is something with his crappy animus...
DEF12... I completely agree with you, I wanted the armor boost - the defense boost does very very very little. It makes me sad that they shut the door on the armor boost. If our beasts are going to be a glass cannon though, at least give them a speed boost.
BFS with Unbinding is awesome. They are still expensive but I agree with your assessment.
Angelius... I don't know why they refuse straight up AP and adjust the POW. There are other models with that power set and can buy extra attacks. I fully support Angelius dropping overtake, giving Side Step instead is great (but pushed?). The point drop is very much welcomed though.
What are your thoughts about Azriel? I still don't like his animus... but the main question is that is he still too expensive?
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