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Post by lillumultipass99 on Jun 10, 2020 14:20:20 GMT
Hi everyone, I have been looking at (and trying) different miniature games over the past few months (even though the lockdown did cut down on experimentation), primarily playing a bit of Malifaux, Infinity and Marvel crisis protocol. I think I will stick with MCP (because of the theme) but I am not sure about the others. Meanwhile, as a former competitive chess player, warmachine continues to appeal to me as it seems to check a lot of my boxes, i.e, I am looking for a good variety in abilities, varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army, i.e., different playstyle within the same faction, I like most of the models (I just discovered some models in Grymkin such as the dreamer and I find them wonderful, but I also like the clean looks of scyrah jacks...), the mix between warjacks and warbeasts (as I enjoy settings that blend fantasy/magic and technology...), great visual variety in terms of models (contrary to Infinity or Legion for instance, where I find that a lot of models look alike)… However, I still have some questions : - how has the game evolved over the past 6-8 months ? any particular set of news that would rekindle the community ? One thing that worries me is the lack of new strategy content/battle report in WMH. It seems LOS publishes interesting things (and I have recently discovered knightsmachine as well), and I have seen a few Batrep such as that from Arcane assist, but it seems limited. And I love strategy discussions or watching Batreps? Have people migrated to other games ? If so which ones ? What is the best place for strategy discussions ?
- A related question : What other mini games are you playing (if you do) ?
- How do you feel about the Igougo mechanism ? I guess for those of you who have been playing for a long time, this is probably natural, but, as I get some experience with other games, I have come to like alternate activation (AA) for the feeling of always being engaged in the game it gives. I reckon that for a non-skirmish sized game, AA might not really be feasible however. Having never played a game the size of WMH with igougo, I wonder how it feels during your opponent’s turn. What are the advantages of igougo according to you ?
- It seems models continue to be hard to find (at least here in France). Hence, I plan on getting whole armies 2nd hand. In a French forum, there are quite a few proposals, but I find it hard to distinguish which models are interesting and which are not. What’s the best way to do that ? Try to find “meta” lists ? The thing is, due to the lockdown, I guess no tournament has taken place for quite some time...
- Related to that, are there some factions I should be avoiding ? I usually tend to like a controlling style of play. Given what I have read about the factions and the visuals, in Warma, I tend to like Menoth, Scyrah, Cyriss, Crucible guard, and in Hordes, I like Orboros, Grymkin, Infernals and I like Trollbloods’ visuals, although everyone seem to think they suck from a competitive standpoint.
- Storage : as I was looking up Star Wars Armada, I read about someone that stored its ships in this box : www.amazon.com/Stanley-Click-Connect-Organizer-STST19900/dp/B00GJYTXLS Do you think it would be feasible for WMH? Indeed, storage remains an issue I haven’t really solved (for a game with large armies and large minis). I don’t have the necessary space to leave my minis on a shelf, and I have to optimize things…and then I have to think transport as well. I recall that all those issues were one reason I finally veered towards skirmish games with smaller minis.
Thanks for your help. All remarks/suggestions/links are appreciate ;-)
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Post by Azahul on Jun 11, 2020 2:14:17 GMT
Well, that's a lot. Let's see how much I can help with: Evolution: With the shutdown of the planet in order, probably the biggest evolution has been the rise of playing virtually. My own country has been organising tournaments on a pretty regular basis (usually playing one round a week, to allow for opponents' schedules to align). It's no substitute for physical gaming, but new tools like War Table have made it a more pleasant experience. Meanwhile, PP continues to release and tease new models, but there are delays and community testing is on hold while physical distancing remains in effect. Igougo: So, I play a few different games, including ones like Malifaux (an alternating activation system, as you'd be aware). I don't consider either mode of play inherently superior to the other. Alternating Activations has its perks, but what Igougo allows for is the development and execution of big, complicated turns with lots of interlocking activations. You really get to flex those problem solving muscles, because your opponent won't be interrupting you mid-sequence once they see what you're trying to achieve. This often combines well with the game's win-by-assassination mechanic. If your opponent has put you in a corner, you get to pause, think, and bring everything you have to bear in opening a path to their Warcaster and winning the game. I usually spend my opponent's turn thinking through my own next turn and trying to get the groundwork started on that plan. There will be games where you're more or less idly waiting for your opponent to finish so that you can get back to doing things, but I look at like this - Each round, my opponent is assembling a puzzle that I need to solve, while trying to solve the puzzle I presented them in my turn. If my opponent needs some time to think to come up with the best puzzle possible, that's cool, and the fun I get from solving (or failing to solve) in return is worth that time investment. Model viability: The best way to find out what's relevant would be to ask, I imagine If you're interested in Grymkin, for example, the good news is that most of their models range from good to great. Once you settle on a faction, and you have a playstyle in mind, it's a lot easier to narrow down the list of models you should be keeping an eye out for. Factions: If you describe yourself as a control player, Grymkin is definitely a good faction to consider. They tend, as a rule, to be about slow, melee-centric armies that dictate what opponents can and can't do on a given turn through their Arcana. Dreamer is generally considered one of the premier Control Warlocks in the game. Circle Orboros also has some very strong Control options, Krueger2 has been considered the peak Control character for about as long as he's been in the game. Protectorate has some good denial options, though they lean a bit more towards straight attrition these days I believe. The other factions you listed more or less interact with their opponent's models primarily through killing them, but you might still find them fun choices. Retribution and Crucible Guard like to field strong shooting options, and killing the enemy at range can feel a bit like control as you edge up on attrition without exposing your own pieces. It's worth noting that while Trolls and, to an extent, Retribution are considered towards the bottom end of the competitive scale compared to the factions you listed, there's not really a big gap between the top and bottom of the game. Infernals, incidentally, play very differently from the other factions, and you'll spend a bit more time squirreled away in your half of the board learning to make your army's energy economy work properly so that you can summon more monsters and drown out your opponent. They're very cool, and very strong, and don't really compare easily to anything else out there. Storage: I'm afraid I don't really have any experience with the box in question. For my part I primarily keep my minis in army boxes from KR. You could check them out here: www.krmulticase.com/ My collection has grown fairly large, so I have about half a dozen different boxes at this point to store all my minis in, but I've also been playing this game for nearly a decade now and I've bought some fairly ridiculous numbers of duplicate models to try out different skew lists (like owning eight Bone Grinder units, or six of each Warbeast, that kind of craziness).
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 11, 2020 4:38:15 GMT
My game time has been limited, so I'll try to keep my answers to the point. how has the game evolved over the past 6-8 months ? any particular set of news that would rekindle the community ? One thing that worries me is the lack of new strategy content/battle report in WMH. It seems LOS publishes interesting things (and I have recently discovered knightsmachine as well), and I have seen a few Batrep such as that from Arcane assist, but it seems limited. And I love strategy discussions or watching Batreps? Have people migrated to other games ? If so which ones ? What is the best place for strategy discussions ? There hasn't been much evolution over the last 6-8 months, except the launch of more Riot Quest models. Between Neo-Mechanika's Kickstarter launch and virus shut-down, it tends to slow things down a lot. Gameplay is also limited a little due pretty much being all online. PP has just announced new Legion models, so we should be seeing a CID for them soon, and Trollbloods have been promised a CID "soon" as well. So we'll see after that. A related question : What other mini games are you playing (if you do)? How do you feel about the Igougo mechanism ? I guess for those of you who have been playing for a long time, this is probably natural, but, as I get some experience with other games, I have come to like alternate activation (AA) for the feeling of always being engaged in the game it gives. I reckon that for a non-skirmish sized game, AA might not really be feasible however. Having never played a game the size of WMH with igougo, I wonder how it feels during your opponent’s turn. What are the advantages of igougo according to you ? My first tabletop game was Battletech. It uses a phased turn system where everyone performs the same actions during a Phase, i.e. everyone moves during Movement, everyone shoots during Shooting, etc. Initiative rolls determine who acts first. It is also balanced in the fact that damage in a Phase doesn't get allocated until the end of the Phase. This makes Alpha Strikes nasty, but what you just shot might still be able to fire back at you any way before they are taken off the board. I have played 40K as well as Warmachine, and have models for Dropzone Commander and Firestorm Armada and Planetfall (but haven't played games of the latter three). I've looked in to Infinity, but with the local group meeting when I can't go, I haven't bothered investing in those tiny models that intimidate my bulky fingers. All of these use an IGOUGO system. Infinity's is the most reactive of them all, which means you are still involved in your opponent's turn. Warmachine CAN be reactive, but it is really dependent on if your models have (or can gain) the Counter-X rules. 40K is only reactive if you get Charged, otherwise you're just rolling to save your models. The other three don't have as much in the way of reactive systems. I haven't had a chance to try X-Wing, Malifaux, or Bolt Action (the biggest Alternate Activation games around me, though I'm not sure on SW Legion), so I can't give a good critique on them. On one hand, I understand how useful it can be for things like "Alpha Strikes" in doing IGOUGO systems. As Azahul said, the ability to actually set up and execute a puzzle is also quite handy. This is something that you really can't do in AA or Phased play, unless you're really lucky or game the system (X-Wing's AA is based on the individual pilot/ship's initiative, for example). However, the ability to have one of your unit's eliminated, sometimes before they can literally even move, is something I've disagreed with in IGOUGO. It gets worse when certain immersion-breaking rules are set up because of problems CAUSED by IGOUGO (looking at you 40K 3rd-7th Edition). As an example, the first 40K game I played with models I owned (I had played a game with someone else's Deathwing earlier), I had my Chaos Predator Stunned before it could move. It ended up staying stunned for almost the entire game until it was stripped of its weapons, and then finally Wrecked. So not a huge fan, but there aren't many games of any popularity that avoid Warhammer's traps. The number is growing, though. It seems models continue to be hard to find (at least here in France). Hence, I plan on getting whole armies 2nd hand. In a French forum, there are quite a few proposals, but I find it hard to distinguish which models are interesting and which are not. What’s the best way to do that ? Try to find “meta” lists ? The thing is, due to the lockdown, I guess no tournament has taken place for quite some time... Related to that, are there some factions I should be avoiding ? I usually tend to like a controlling style of play. Given what I have read about the factions and the visuals, in Warma, I tend to like Menoth, Scyrah, Cyriss, Crucible guard, and in Hordes, I like Orboros, Grymkin, Infernals and I like Trollbloods’ visuals, although everyone seem to think they suck from a competitive standpoint. Model availability is rough for most people right now, but outside the US it is absolutely horrible. The newest ones are easier to get new, while the older ones will be pretty much required to be second hand. Just the nature of the market right now, especially after a bit of a diaspora soon after Mk3 and 40K's 8th Edition started. As to which one you should start with? Go with what you think looks best, but Trollbloods really have gone the longest without the Community Involved Development (CID), when they look at revising and updating models in a Theme as well as introducing new ones for a faction.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 11, 2020 11:38:51 GMT
Other people in this thread have already given great examples, but I would just like to add something about the IGOUGO system. When I was younger, I also used to play chess. I was just a kid, so I eventually got bored of it, because I felt like I had plateaued and I didn't get to do much on my opponent's turns. Sometimes Warmachine turns can take something like half an hour, but I have played games of chess where my opponent thought for half an hour about one move, going over all the options to see what would have the best end result.
Now, it happens sometimes that you get "distracted" while your opponent is playing their turn, but what usually happens, for me is that I play my own turn with a specific goal and have a rough idea of what I want to achieve on my next turn. As my opponent responds during their turn, certain parts of the plan lose viability and the plan has to change, so you adjust. There is also a prevalent atmosphere to declare what you're doing and what you are rolling dice for. This is mostly so that everything is clear and there are no unnecessary arguments, but also serves to keep the other player engaged. Warmachine/Hordes is an open-information game, but is so large that it is impossible to remember every single thing in existence, so questions about the opposing army get asked a lot, which most people will answer verbally, again promoting engagement.
Together with the other things that have been said, I don't see igougo as a disadvantage, but rather a feature of the game.
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Post by lillumultipass99 on Jun 11, 2020 13:28:20 GMT
Thanks guys for the thoughtful replies ! I have to think about it. I particularly like your point of view wrt Igougo : it makes a lot of sense and validates what I was intuitively thinking, i.e., it allows for more "strategic" plans vs. "tactical" decisions, something that I tend to like. It leads to a lot of problem-solving, which I also like.
As to storage, all your collection fits into about 6 KR cases? It uses foam right ? It always looks like it is very good for protection but it takes a lot of shelf space. I Was also thinking about a battlefoam bag with magna rack but I would need to magnetize all the minis.
As to buying minis, here are examples of what I can get :
Menoth (for 400 EUR, includes a lot of tokens, measurement stick and a battlefoam bag; numbers are individual prices) :
Warcaster Severius1 15 Feora1 8 Kreoss1 13 Thyra 10 Reclaimer1 10 Reznik (NP) 12 Severius2 15 Vindictus 7 Feora2 11 Kreoss3 23 Anson Durst 20
Warjack courge of Heresy 35 Redeemer 15,5 Reckoner 28 Reckoner 28 Blessing of Vengeance 20 Vigilant 15,5 Vanquisher 28 Templar 28 Templar 28 Fire of Salvation 35 Hand of Judgment 48 Devout 11 Avatar of Menoth 50 Repenter 15,5
Units Daughters of the flame (AP) 22 Daughters of the flame 22 Daughters of the flame (NP) 22 Rhoven & Co 18 Temple Flameguard + UA 53 Zealots + UA 43 Exemplar Errants + UA 48 Knights Exemplar (NP) 28 Choir of Menoth (4)+2 (NP) 22 Cleansers (5) + UA 25 Idrians Skirmishers + UA 48 Exemplars Vengers 70 Bastions (AP) 36 Bastions 36
Battle Engine Battle engine 68
Solos Gravus 24 Knight Exemplar Senechal 10 Knight Exemplar Senechal 10 Reclaimer 6 Initiate Tristan Durant 10 Hierophant 6 Nicia 9 Vassal of Menoth 5 Vassal of Menoth 5 Errant Exemplar Senechal 11 Mecanik 6 Attendant Priest 9 Covenant of Menoth 11 Vilmon 9 Paladin of the Wall 7 Bastion Senechal 16 Wracks 13
Mercs Lady Ayana & Master Holt 11 Gorman 5 Saxon Orrik 6 Orin Mindwinter 6 Alten Ashley 7 Pipo Carvalo 6 Pendrake 6 Ragman 8 Madelyn 7 Eyriss2 11 Anastasia 6 Lanyssa Ryssyl 7
It looks very thorough but when I look at recent lists in Conflict chamber, it seemed to lack a lot of minis.
As to Cyriss (numbers represent number of minis; price is about 400 EUR):
Warcasters Axis 1 Orion 1 Lucant 1 Aurora 1 Locke 1 Syntherion 1 Iron Mother 1 Units Reciprocators 2 Perforators 1 Eradicators 1 Reductors 1 Obstructors 1 Clockwork Angels 3 Optifex Directive 3 Solos Steelsoul Protector 3 ADO 2 Attunement 2 Enigma Foundry 2 Transverse Enumerator 3 Elimination 4 Accretion 1 Reflex 1 Locus 1 Inization Servitor Converti 1 Warjacks Prime Axiom 2 KIT Assimilator/Conservator 3 Assimilator 1 Modulator 1 Cipher/Inverter/Monitor 3+1 incomplet Cypher 1 Inverter 1 Galvanizer 3 Diffuser 1 Mitigator 2 Corollary 1 BE TEP 2
As to Grymkin, the seller says he has all references twice except solos, but at 600 EUR, it is a bit expensive...
What do u think ? Thanks !
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 12, 2020 8:27:51 GMT
Grymkin and Convergence of Cyriss are so-called "limited factions", so they are not likely to receive many new releases as opposed to a "main faction" such as Protectorate of Menoth which has a more regular expansion schedule. Note that all of the limited factions have something unique about that that makes them diverge a bit from the standard rules. For Grymkin this is using Arcana instead of Feats, and for CoC this is the Induction system for focus.
I would try to find out which faction appeals to you most, aesthetically and mechanically, and go for that one, knowing that the CoC or Grymkin deal will get you (close to) faction-complete, and while the Protectorate does seem like a good deal, will leave you with more things you might want to pick up.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 12, 2020 13:29:59 GMT
It's worth noting though that Grymkin sound like they're due for another wave of models releasing early next year (although probably a little later because pandemic things). They've got a corrupted Menite Archon on its way, if I remember right.
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