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Post by sand20go on Jun 4, 2020 21:16:48 GMT
1. Do posters - especially those that PLAY a lot of khador think that Mad Dogs under Karchev really were so oppressive and OP that both Zerkers and Kharchev needed to get hit with the bat as hard as they did?
2. Related - do you think it had enough time to settle? IN other words, was there enough data from Loud Chris's win and then I gather some Euro tournies to justify it?
I find it slightly ahisoric to say it was a history defining OP list (as is the current argument here)
(https://knightsmachine.com/2020/06/04/grimmkin-fairy-tales-power-creep/?fbclid=IwAR2byY8Xl1nPOn394b5KGXXmeFC-ZzCyXL6FO24VL58vEWr_xuvD1Mw2ctE)
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Post by michael on Jun 5, 2020 12:50:47 GMT
1) Yes, it was a problem. I dismissed it initially, but much later, after putting it on the table and play testing it, yeah, it was dumb. The problem was the free WGK 4” advance (as the theme originally released), plus the free 12” run, plus Karchev’s Counter Charge. It really does flip the game into “can you grind these boxes before I Lock you out of scenario?” It’s dumb.
Even with that being said, the changes went completely overboard. Remember that we had a quadruple nerf hit us: 1) Karchev’s feat was gutted. The loss of boosted attack rolls ruined it for me.
2) All Berserker chassis jacks got way too expensive
3) The Mad Dog has to spend a focus for + SPD, making it a dead ability thanks to Unstable. Nobody’s going to risk a 33% chance to RFP their own model just to advance up the table at a normal pace.
4) Globally, everyone lost the ability to power attack their own models. This was maybe needed anyway, but while the Mad Dog list abused this quite well, that was a really interesting tactic, and I hate losing tactical flexibility. I think it hurt Khador as a faction more than anyone else. (It’s not like we had a whole lot of tricks to begin with, you know?)
And sadly, the wreck of the Berserker chassis during the December 2016 errata was not (in my opinion) remotely corrected by the jack rebalance in Armored Corps in 2018. But...whatever.
For #2: it’s probably good it didn’t settle in longer. It was a dumb list. For me, yes, it was a history-defining list, because people started bringing sufficient ARM-cracking lists to make Khador jack-heavy lists unfeasible. ...Playing a bunch of jacks in Khador and doing well was nice while it lasted, for like 4 months.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 5, 2020 14:35:24 GMT
1. Yes, but I think it got hit a little too hard and then the entire Berserker chassis was pretty meh.
2. No, it needed to be hit.
One other thing is that in terms of historical effect, I wonder if it had any impact on the Armored Korps CID — particularly the last-minute reduction in boxes the Berserkers were hit with in the last week. It seems like PP was very, very careful that they didn’t want Mad Dogs to be a thing again.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 5, 2020 17:09:02 GMT
1. Yes, but I think it got hit a little too hard and then the entire Berserker chassis was pretty meh. 2. No, it needed to be hit. One other thing is that in terms of historical effect, I wonder if it had any impact on the Armored Korps CID — particularly the last-minute reduction in boxes the Berserkers were hit with in the last week. It seems like PP was very, very careful that they didn’t want Mad Dogs to be a thing again. thanks. Good, non stark perspective. Anyway, less social media - more painting ;-)
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 6, 2020 9:57:55 GMT
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jun 9, 2020 6:47:15 GMT
I know where I'm not wanted.
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corvius
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by corvius on Jun 9, 2020 15:23:22 GMT
I really wish Unstable,if you fail the roll, was changed to: "At the start of the the next Maintenance Phase, this warjack suffers Disruption."
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 9, 2020 17:20:57 GMT
I really wish Unstable,if you fail the roll, was changed to: "At the start of the the next Maintenance Phase, this warjack suffers Disruption." That doesn't sound like such a bad idea, although it might be a bit too easy to nullify the disadvantage with a Forgeseer. How about if you fail the roll you just mark off all the jack's cortex boxes?
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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2020 17:25:53 GMT
For what it’s worth: I have word-of-god firsthand assurance from Soles that the Berserker exploding is core to its concept, and is non-negotiable. I also have a pretty freaking sweet solution, but I don’t need to retread that ground for the fiftieth time.
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Post by MacGuffin on Jun 9, 2020 20:47:09 GMT
I also have a pretty freaking sweet solution, but I don’t need to retread that ground for the fiftieth time. You keep teasing us with this idea, but to my knowledge you've never actually shared it. Could you give us the short version? I am genuinely curious.
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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2020 22:42:44 GMT
You keep teasing us with this idea, but to my knowledge you've never actually shared it. Could you give us the short version? I am genuinely curious.
I did...I just don't remember where. It's been a while.
Okay, let me dredge this up out of my memory. For what it's worth: I did actually test all of these things in multiple games. So anyway...
Unstable - Add the following sentence to the beginning of Unstable. "This model can have up to 6 focus points at any time."
Design note: Yes, this allows us, at an extreme cost in resources, to control when this explodes. But it also gives some sort of benefit to Unstable, rather than Unstable simply being a rule that completely screws with the core gameplay mechanic of focus and boosting for absolutely zero benefit.
Berserker - Restore the original damage grid.
Increase the point cost to 10. (Maybe 11. I don't remember. I could have been 11.)
Add Aggressive.
Design Note: it's a budget heavy, now basically on par with the Crusader, Ironclad, etc. I don't remember if my final version had Aggressive or not; I playtested several iterations.
Rager - Restore the original damage grid.
Add "Double Shield Guard" Double Shield Guard - This model can use Shield Guard twice per turn.
Design note: basically, the Rager does its job well already. But, like, there's no reason to take it besides Shield Guard thanks to its poor offense. Leaning into Shield Guard would be swell. (Actually, I'm pretty sure the Vanguard's extra shield guard in Prima Materia was my idea...but whatever. It is not remotely relevant.)
Mad Dog -
Restore the original damage grid.
Increase the point cost to 10.
Remove Smasher.
Add "Better Version of Smasher." "Better Version of Smasher - This model can perform power attacks without spending focus. This model gains boosted attack rolls when performing power attacks."
Hammer Spike -
Add Open Fist ICON.
Design note: You've got me, folks. This felt to me like one of the most forced models to come out of MK II. It honestly feels like the Mad Dog was created in order to justify the plastic kit, but I admit that could be overly cynical. I tried going the offensive route with this model, with tweaking it to have all sorts of special rules tied to those spikes, but honestly, it all felt dumb. Making it a budget power attack bot was the best I came up with. At least it has a defined role.
So anyway... stuff. Whatever.
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Post by MacGuffin on Jun 10, 2020 0:17:15 GMT
You keep teasing us with this idea, but to my knowledge you've never actually shared it. Could you give us the short version? I am genuinely curious.
Mad Dog -
Restore the original damage grid.
Increase the point cost to 10.
Remove Smasher.
Add "Better Version of Smasher." "Better Version of Smasher - This model can perform power attacks without spending focus. This model gains boosted attack rolls when performing power attacks."
Hammer Spike -
Add Open Fist ICON.
So anyway... stuff. Whatever.
That Mad Dog looks awesome! All power attacks all the time sounds like a party, and keeping the P+S at 14 keeps it balanced at 10 points (although the freebooter might be jealous). As for unstable, allocating 6 focus points seems overkill maybe? Why not just roll D3 (instead of a D6) anytime more than one focus is spent, that way you still get to guarantee the boom?
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Post by michael on Jun 10, 2020 3:20:30 GMT
That Mad Dog looks awesome! All power attacks all the time sounds like a party, and keeping the P+S at 14 keeps it balanced at 10 points (although the freebooter might be jealous). As for unstable, allocating 6 focus points seems overkill maybe? Why not just roll D3 (instead of a D6) anytime more than one focus is spent, that way you still get to guarantee the boom? Thanks! Unstable is 6 focus chiefly because the Berserker chassis is really bad at combat when it comes down to it, and there have been so many times I sent the Berserker in on something and wished I had another focus (or two, or three) to finish the job. It makes the Berserker an interesting last-ditch piece that can trade up surprisingly well, at the cost of blowing up... Also, I wanted to ensure a guaranteed explosion comes at a hefty resource cost (allocating between 3-5 focus, depending on whether there are Forge Seers around).
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 10, 2020 23:03:19 GMT
Due to me not reading the cards properly, I played with Berzerkers for a while under the assumption that they could run and charge for free like in Mk2.
Honestly, it just felt right! I still think it's all they need to be an interesting option. It doesn't make them crazy, but it makes them temptingly efficient with battlegroup buff casters like S3 and Karchev.
Not sure what I'd do about the Mad Dog, though.
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Post by michael on Jun 11, 2020 1:02:23 GMT
Due to me not reading the cards properly, I played with Berzerkers for a while under the assumption that they could run and charge for free like in Mk2. Honestly, it just felt right! I still think it's all they need to be an interesting option. It doesn't make them crazy, but it makes them temptingly efficient with battlegroup buff casters like S3 and Karchev. Not sure what I'd do about the Mad Dog, though. Yep. S3 didn’t exist when I did my play testing, but at the same time, she’s effectively limited to a single theme, so...Probably not a concern. Karchev would take them all day if he had boosted attack rolls. But, he doesn’t, so...stuff. Like I said: the Mad Dog feels like the most forced model they ever made. I tried many variants and the only halfway interesting or entertaining thing I came up with was the power attack bot above.
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