Binki Bridage with other caster?

the primary reason it works is butcher 3 pulling people in. So basically

1. You need a similar threat range
2. You need a similar personal threat with your caster, meaning if your caster cant chop down a heavy on their own it probably wont work.

The whole point of the Binki Brigade is that three Devastators body block for an insanely threatening caster. This list design actually goes waaaaaaaaay back to something like No Quarter #4 in 2005 or so, where it featured Butcher1 instead of 3.

The Devastators are disposable pieces meant to clear the way for B3. Defensively, ARM 23, Steady, and Sturdy are supposed to keep Butcher bubble-wrapped on approach. Offensively, Bulldoze and Rain of Death combine to clear lanes for Butcher.

The only other caster that this might sorta-kinda work with is Sorscha1, who has Wind Rush + feat + Shatter on the assassination.

Malakov isn’t going to cut it; his personal melee output is pretty poor.

M<y FAVORITE topic (other than arguing with Chris Davies)

The critical thing about the way _I_ play my binki brigage is Butchers personal output (flashing blade, POW 16 weaponmaster, etc. etc. etc.) Essentially a critical part of the list is that it presents a really difficult puzzle to your opponent - how to put in an EFFICIENT trade for those blocking binkis that GENERALLY continue to do what they have to do until the very last box on their grid is removed. that is critical because butcher will, on the following turn, remove what you put in with prejudice (along with the other other things you brought). If your 'second wave" is not efficient in doing this I am not sure it works. They just piece trade with you - presenting THEIR version of the puzzle (OK, I killed your doorstops - now what are you going to do?) Arm 23 is critical here - it is mathwise about like telling your opponent to roll 1 less die than they would into ARM 20. That is a BIG deal. So whereas POW 12 WM eat Khador jacks on the charge dice -11 makes a bit difference. It means you can set that up and sometimes not even crack armor on the charge.

Critical to this (I think) is that you likely need to be in Jaws because you REALLY want pathfinder. But see below....

Sticking with that tactic What _MIGHT_ work is something really odd ball like a S2 Wolves list with a ton of debuffs. Same GENERAL prinicpal but now what we are doing is removing the things that attacked the binkis with a very strong counter punch with lots and lots of debuffs and her feat so that, for example, a single doomie is doing something like 20 points of damage on the counter. Something like (this actually looks like a bunch of fun...)

conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1S6Y7q7q7qhFhFoR8h8hpupipinf89nf89nn

Khador
[Theme] Wolves of Winter

[Sorscha 2] Forward Kommander Sorscha [+27]
- Devastator [14]
- Devastator [14]
- Devastator [14]
Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]
Greylord Forge Seer [4]
Hermit of Henge Hold [5]
Koldun Lord [4]
Koldun Lord [4]
Orsus the Chained [0(7)]
Void Archon [8]
Void Archon [8]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
- Greylord Escort [3]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
- Greylord Escort [3]
Greylord Ternion [0(7)]


As with Butcher3 here we have the three binkis leading her up. Likely 9 inch failed charges to start with under BC into the binki wall. S0 behind. At least 1 unit of doomies in second wave duty. Sprayers there to spray. Nice brick.

Following turn she hits the go button if they have not responded. I will run the math and post up a second post to see about kill chances but KL puts puppet master on her. BC and Cyclone get cast so she threatens 19 which is greater than butcher and not subject to BS issues with the pull. The biggest question is that with just 2 focus after that can you charge, fish for the critical and kill a non hordes caster. It is pretty compelling math if you can hit the critical or get any sort of debuff on them....but it isn't THAT hard to avoid that.

So you might think that would work on paper but on the table is rarely works.

I am going to ignore the fact that when they are contesting your opponent's stuff while Butcher bullies a zone that isn't really going to work to focus on a game played yesterday. Into Locke.  I RAN 2 binkis (I can't remember if I also energized but kinda beside the point to a positing which blocked the lane for the Vulcan. He otherise had 2 Toros, lights, and a Supressor (but which wasn't close enough.  I positioned Ruin and a marauder within 12 inches (but not too close) of the Vulcan.  

Now what?  That Vulcan (who threatens 13 inches - so FURTHER than the Maurader and the same as Ruin.  ) can't get to the Maurader because the Devastators have sturdy and steady.  No bulldoze for him.  He COULD toss them out of the way and feat and taht probably presents a challege for removing it but I think I just send in the fully loaded Maurader - pin him again, and then repeat with Ruin on the counter counter strike.  [instead he sorta fumbled around and I won on scenario].  Plus I got him to feat early which means that Butcher is in better shape as the game goes on.   he could RUN 14 inches to repostion the Vulcan but that feels like winning as well because it is HARD to do that with a huge base and fully in the the  scenario.

People focus on the POW 16 hands and ARM 19 if it opens up.  But clams....

A)  Have  GREAT autohit.  I have won so many games using rain of death and boosting to remove contesting models to clear a zone or flag.  ARM 19 isn't trivial so it isn't like it is autokilled by a 3 point solo after doing that.  If it scores you a point (or 2) then do it and put scenario pressure on.

2)  Have Bulldoze.  In the aforementioned game against Locke I won by having my devestator under Andy just run and push out a contesting model that was toeing in. 

3)  Have Sturdy. That is actually a lot more important than steady.  The ability to be able to avoid bing pushed or pulled is golden in so many matchups.  You want to make someone's day unhappy? Play against a new Convergence player that has a brand new shinning Prime Axiom on the table who has been bullying people all day with Tow and Smash. Explain sturdy to them and then show them the sheer uber output that is Butcher3 going into a prime.  Melted metal INDEED.

4)  Buffs that get them to POW 18 (or effectively POW 20). Silence of death can help IF./when they need to do work.  I also have started bringing the hermit.  I run one under Andy so I get Redline +2 as well which can really help.  

5) And they THRIVE with a great counter punch like Butcher3 who has a great threat range.  14 inch threat (before the pull) is a really nice thing.  You can, with vengeance, get that to 20 so if your opponent has something that can realistically outhreat butcher (not MUCH can) then put the Argus in front and make it a 20 inch threat.  

6)  We have great "counter punching" jacks like the jugger, Ruin or Maurader and at ARM 20 it is hard to "shoot them off the table."  MOST things that can are at risk of dying if they ignore the clams.  I have loved, for example, rain of deathing Garath2 a couple of times.  Pow 18 boosted that autohits can leave a mark.


Let me add some things that you need to think about....

1)  Butcher Can be killed. Lost a game yesterday when I got totally greedy and decided for some dumb reason to spend 3 focus (pull and swing) to kill a lone Hably to score a zone.  Camp would have been FAR better.  Really that is the challenge with the Binki brigae - how much work on the counter and how vulnerable do you want to leave butcher?  I have tried a bunch of variants - I think mad visions with the hermit and the war dog is the best combo for the points.  I wish I had a shield guard but the Rager is SO expensive for that.  

2) Watch throws and slams.  That is a way of getting the binkis out of the way.  Problem with Slams is that they are random -so if you move it just an inch you are sorta now even MORE blocked.  But it is a way of moving them.

That is so dumb that I like it.

I haven’t touched any of the Oblivion themes because I was on my (spectacularly unsuccessful) Wolves of Winter kick, and got demoralized.

I think I will do that in our wartable league.  I have a bunch of menoth models - I just wish that didn't lock me into Menoth in a steamroller as I don't have THAT many menoth models ;-)  That said I do have Harby so how many do I really NEED.....;-)