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Post by steeltitan on Oct 5, 2020 17:47:16 GMT
Do you also run Draigo with V1? I sometimes feel tempted to try him when I play Vlad1...he doesnt seem bad at all and S&P puts him at an effective 2xPOW19.
ARM18 is a bit sad but if you run an Adjunct and use the imprint he has DEF15 vs shooting.
I guess its mostly a list issue. In WGK you want to take Marauders and in Jaws you typically dont run Vlad.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 18:19:21 GMT
I don't have enough winter guard to run the Theme but I do run Vlad.
I don't use Drago with him as I feel Drago is too expensive for wot he is.
Vlad1 is a very good choice for Jaws but I almost never allocate focus as he is casting one of his 4 cost spells every turn while the other 3 focus either goes into camping or Wind Wall.
Signs and Portents half fixes both the accuracy and damage deficiencies of the Berserker chassis jacks while his feat fixes the SPD issue. Bring Forgeseers to fuel the Berserkers and Sorscha0 with a Rager to help keep him safe and lend a hand with Boundless Charge.
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Post by Havock on Oct 5, 2020 21:36:59 GMT
Drago is arguably point-for-point the worst jack in the game.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Oct 6, 2020 7:54:26 GMT
Drago is arguably point-for-point the worst jack in the game. Black Ivan wants a word with you. At least Drago is an OK beatstick. Ivan is just... well... a severely overcosted Destroyer with fancy useless rules.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 6, 2020 7:55:55 GMT
Please, he's not even the worst point-for-point in Khador. We have Black Ivan for that.
EDIT: ninja'd!
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 6, 2020 8:11:46 GMT
I dunno, his rules are a little unfocussed but they're all decent rules. Point Blank makes him a bit better in melee (and a bit more resistant to being crippled), and on a 4" AOE is not terrible against infantry. Bulldoze is just a versatile tool. And Evasive is a great rule to have. He's just insanely expensive! The Destroyer used to be 16 points, when it was recosted to 14 he should have been discounted as well. Which of course is part of Drago's problem as well; the Berserker started MkIII at 10 points, when it dropped to 8 Drago should have been adjusted as well.
I feel like power attacks are less common now, so the value of Black Ivan's Open Fist is lower than it used to be, making it feel more like a downgrade from the Destroyer's axe than it used to. Is that fair? There's not really much you can do about that of course, so what other changes would make sense for a Black Ivan rework? Is a points drop all he needs? Or maybe a rule to improve his accuracy, like Hunter or something?
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Post by P'tit Nico on Oct 6, 2020 8:28:51 GMT
I dunno, his rules are a little unfocussed but they're all decent rules. Point Blank makes him a bit better in melee (and a bit more resistant to being crippled), and on a 4" AOE is not terrible against infantry. Bulldoze is just a versatile tool. And Evasive is a great rule to have. He's just insanely expensive! The Destroyer used to be 16 points, when it was recosted to 14 he should have been discounted as well. Which of course is part of Drago's problem as well; the Berserker started MkIII at 10 points, when it dropped to 8 Drago should have been adjusted as well. Black Ivan's problem is also Harkevich. Wanna hear a joke? His bond gives him boosted ranged attack rolls, and Point-Blank is a melee attack!
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 6, 2020 8:48:40 GMT
I dunno, his rules are a little unfocussed but they're all decent rules. The same is said of Assault Kommandos. In both cases they're a toolbox of sometime-handy rules, but you have to pay for every tool regardless of how useful it is. He's also quite different thematically to when he was first released. Remember DEF12 and Dodge? He was set up to be nimble and hard to tie down, even in melee. He had a Destroyer's gun, but at RAT5, all these mobility options, and only cost 1 point more than the Destroyer. As for what I would want him to do to not suck; thematic focus. Personally I'd swap Point Blank for something like Rapid Fire, Return Fire, Counterblast... for 19 points I'd want the possibility of more than one shot per turn. I'd also like to see something like Swift Hunter. So if you went Return Fire and Swift Hunter on top of Bulldoze and Evasive, you have a ranged jack who can bump themselves out of melee, and if you shoot them they can shoot back and potentially reposition 4" depending on how it all pans out. I don't know if that would actually be good, but it would at least be interesting, thematic, and different.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 6, 2020 9:04:21 GMT
Black Ivan's problem is also Harkevich. Wanna hear a joke? His bond gives him boosted ranged attack rolls, and Point-Blank is a melee attack! Yeah, Harkevich is definitely part of the problem. I don't see the bond as an issue though; boosted ranged attack rolls means Broadside gets at least one accurate long range decent POW attack out. Meanwhile the Point Blank attack is at MAT 7, and against infantry is going to put down the AOE even if you miss, so I don't think a boosted attack roll is a big deal there. Now if it was boosted DAMAGE that would be a different story...
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 6, 2020 9:12:44 GMT
He's also quite different thematically to when he was first released. Remember DEF12 and Dodge? He was set up to be nimble and hard to tie down, even in melee. He had a Destroyer's gun, but at RAT5, all these mobility options, and only cost 1 point more than the Destroyer. As for what I would want him to do to not suck; thematic focus. Personally I'd swap Point Blank for something like Rapid Fire, Return Fire, Counterblast... for 19 points I'd want the possibility of more than one shot per turn. I'd also like to see something like Swift Hunter. So if you went Return Fire and Swift Hunter on top of Bulldoze and Evasive, you have a ranged jack who can bump themselves out of melee, and if you shoot them they can shoot back and potentially reposition 4" depending on how it all pans out. I don't know if that would actually be good, but it would at least be interesting, thematic, and different. DEF 12 was a bit "out of nowhere"; I can accept Evasive as making more sense than DEF 12 and Dodge. Although I wish it wasn't only against ranged attacks; losing the ability to dodge out of melee is a huge blow. I like your idea of increasing his movement, to make him a better "guerrilla fighter" sort of thing. Multiple ranged attacks would not have that much value outside of Harkevich's bond though; extra unboosted RAT 5 attacks are not that big a deal right?
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 6, 2020 9:59:14 GMT
Better than nothing! I'm always perfectly happy to put Sentry on a Destroyer with Strakhov to get a free RAT4 shot, so a free RAT5 shot is a step up.
I'm sure work could be done on the actual mechanics, but I was mainly aiming for him to have a strong ranged and mobility theme
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 6, 2020 10:48:28 GMT
Better than nothing! I'm always perfectly happy to put Sentry on a Destroyer with Strakhov to get a free RAT4 shot, so a free RAT5 shot is a step up. I'm sure work could be done on the actual mechanics, but I was mainly aiming for him to have a strong ranged and mobility theme Sure, but like you say: you pay for every tool, right? Eh, I dunno. I mean, with themes dominating the game so you normally can't take him anyway, I guess it hardly matters.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 6, 2020 11:16:13 GMT
I realise I missed a salient point in my earlier reply; I'm also assuming his points would drop to 16. If I could get a RAT5 Rapid Fire Destroyer for 16 points I'd certainly consider it. It would be similar to Triumph compared to a Defender.
At 19 points he'd need a hell of a lot of work
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Oct 6, 2020 11:36:38 GMT
I dunno, his rules are a little unfocussed but they're all decent rules. Point Blank makes him a bit better in melee (and a bit more resistant to being crippled), and on a 4" AOE is not terrible against infantry. Bulldoze is just a versatile tool. And Evasive is a great rule to have. He's just insanely expensive! The Destroyer used to be 16 points, when it was recosted to 14 he should have been discounted as well. Which of course is part of Drago's problem as well; the Berserker started MkIII at 10 points, when it dropped to 8 Drago should have been adjusted as well. I feel like power attacks are less common now, so the value of Black Ivan's Open Fist is lower than it used to be, making it feel more like a downgrade from the Destroyer's axe than it used to. Is that fair? There's not really much you can do about that of course, so what other changes would make sense for a Black Ivan rework? Is a points drop all he needs? Or maybe a rule to improve his accuracy, like Hunter or something? I think the problem with black ivan is that half his rules are tied to melee (bulldoze, point blank) yet he is even worse in melee than a devastator, which also has bulldoze but is significantly cheaper. Also if you commit a jack to melee you are going to lose it and losing 19 points is worse than losing 11, 13 or 14. So if i were to re balance him i'd swap point blank for dual attack, RAT 6 base, bond gives him boosted attack rolls flat, even though i dont know what yet, 17 pts maybe? Probably not ideal, but its a start.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Oct 6, 2020 11:39:14 GMT
I think both Harkevich and Black Ivan need a complete overhaul, to be honest. But we've gone way off topic.
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