Post by sand20go on Mar 20, 2020 13:50:30 GMT
Ok. Admission up front - I have NOT played a lot of Karchev in Mk3. A few games here and there but nothing like how many games I have played with Butcher3. So maybe on the table the man in the machine just shines.
But I am confused about why so many Karchev lists and why people consistently give him love. Maybe I just don't understand the Mk3 version well enough (but boy I loved the electric butt slide kills in Mk2)
1) Road to War vs. Energize. You definitely get the 1 inch extra but that also requires you to trigger it. In a world with so much shield guarding I am having a hard time seeing how your opponent doesn't just shove a bunch of things 9-10 inches from your jacks and says "I will try my luck. Shoot away." If you can't get through 3 battlepriests or crabbits or a host of other crap that mitigates RtW triggers you are sorta f'ed the next turn.
Meanwhile Energize is always live. So you are always looking at with our base jacks (and S0; she surely is with both casters) a 12 inch threat. 12<13 but it can be 2 jacks. I do recogonize that we are looking at upkeep versus 2 focus spell but it seems also the case that a lot of times you will have upkept Battle-charge - or at least be tempted to.
2) Remove from play. Silence of death is one of the greatest upkeeps in the game. Having takedown on a stick in a theme with free eliminators is just AMAZING. Assuming you are not getting their most aggressive arm skew and need the spell on your heavy hitters, you now can RFP all those tough and recursion models that are out there. Hell yes. Less valuable (but still can be) in WGK - makes them hit hard with Joe's song of power once the lines get clogged. Karchev has nothing similar.
3) PErsonal output. Karchev's POW 19 is great. Fantastic. And under feat all those swings are freely boosted damage. But Mat 7 is going to miss. Meanwhile my big boy is swinging at EFFECTIVELY about the same power as Karchev (Pow 16 WM vs. POw 19). His threat range in many circumstances is as far or farther (SP 5 vs. Sp 6 with Arcane Turbine but see Energize since K can't RtW himself and then of course impending doom). Not even going to mention flashing blade. And Butcher is MAT 9. So whereas Karchev really needs to consider boosting on things after they nerfed his feat, Butcher doesn't. That can make a HUGE difference when you are calculating your chances to kill a warnoun that is def 16. Butcher can roll away, Karchev can swing once or twice and hope.
4) Feats. IF you can get a great turn where you are pounding on multiple jacks with your jacks Karchev is CLEARLY amazing. But won't, 9 out of 10 times, you get their infantry spam. Butcher helps mitigate that because of the oft overlooked part of his feat - "You can't charge me". Dont' give those beasts or caster a secondard charge target and Butcher stands there as the god he is.
5) 30 WJP vs. 22. This is a big thing in Karchev's favor. It MIGHT be definitive. You are paying a LOT for Argus that often just get in the way. You have to deal with the challenges of having Argus that can be rebuked (which makes Butcher a very very sad butcher while Karchev doesn't care). Of course Butcher CAN use those argus in other matches to great effective - taunting people with the danger of triggering vengenance OR (something I have increasingly made use of, Triggering Sprint the turn the big boy goes in) to frustrate your opponent even more.
6) Personal survivability. Again, maybe this is a place for K to shine. 34 boxes, +1 ARM, unyielding. What isn't to like?? Well Def 12. Things hit Karchev that miss Butcher. Even better when Butcher gets a doge or a Morrowcon hanging out with him. Def 18 Butcher is a "fun' butcher.
7) Battlecharged vs. ?. I totally love countercharging things. But do you honestly get THAT much work out of it? A lot of my meta, after probably 100+ games into Skorne or Toros or a host of other things understands the Countercharging rules REALLY well. Takes some clock but in a majority of time (not all the time, not almost all the time, but the majority of time) people who remember that counter charge is up can GENERALLY shut MOST of it down with proper order of activation, remembering LOS rules and simply saying that MAT 7 Khador jacks might miss and that soometimes it is fine that they killed a grunt cause now the Khador jacks are more bunched up. Honestly BattleCharged feels like a spell that is there for "gotchas" - getting your opponent when they SPACE on the rule and let you countercharge and then RTW and then feat a kodiak into their caster for a GG Kill. Happens. Great. I want to rather have 17 inch threat of death always live and not relying on a brain fart. Butcher is coming for you. Run away little girl.
I get that I have a serious fanboy crush on Butcher 3. But with Jaws giving out Pathfinder and then some GREAT themes (Wolves, Zerkova in Flames) giving us a second list that near DEMANDS their "dudes be gone list" I have a hard time figuring out why the ATC people would choose some old guy in a jack over the god among men that is Butcher3.
But I am confused about why so many Karchev lists and why people consistently give him love. Maybe I just don't understand the Mk3 version well enough (but boy I loved the electric butt slide kills in Mk2)
1) Road to War vs. Energize. You definitely get the 1 inch extra but that also requires you to trigger it. In a world with so much shield guarding I am having a hard time seeing how your opponent doesn't just shove a bunch of things 9-10 inches from your jacks and says "I will try my luck. Shoot away." If you can't get through 3 battlepriests or crabbits or a host of other crap that mitigates RtW triggers you are sorta f'ed the next turn.
Meanwhile Energize is always live. So you are always looking at with our base jacks (and S0; she surely is with both casters) a 12 inch threat. 12<13 but it can be 2 jacks. I do recogonize that we are looking at upkeep versus 2 focus spell but it seems also the case that a lot of times you will have upkept Battle-charge - or at least be tempted to.
2) Remove from play. Silence of death is one of the greatest upkeeps in the game. Having takedown on a stick in a theme with free eliminators is just AMAZING. Assuming you are not getting their most aggressive arm skew and need the spell on your heavy hitters, you now can RFP all those tough and recursion models that are out there. Hell yes. Less valuable (but still can be) in WGK - makes them hit hard with Joe's song of power once the lines get clogged. Karchev has nothing similar.
3) PErsonal output. Karchev's POW 19 is great. Fantastic. And under feat all those swings are freely boosted damage. But Mat 7 is going to miss. Meanwhile my big boy is swinging at EFFECTIVELY about the same power as Karchev (Pow 16 WM vs. POw 19). His threat range in many circumstances is as far or farther (SP 5 vs. Sp 6 with Arcane Turbine but see Energize since K can't RtW himself and then of course impending doom). Not even going to mention flashing blade. And Butcher is MAT 9. So whereas Karchev really needs to consider boosting on things after they nerfed his feat, Butcher doesn't. That can make a HUGE difference when you are calculating your chances to kill a warnoun that is def 16. Butcher can roll away, Karchev can swing once or twice and hope.
4) Feats. IF you can get a great turn where you are pounding on multiple jacks with your jacks Karchev is CLEARLY amazing. But won't, 9 out of 10 times, you get their infantry spam. Butcher helps mitigate that because of the oft overlooked part of his feat - "You can't charge me". Dont' give those beasts or caster a secondard charge target and Butcher stands there as the god he is.
5) 30 WJP vs. 22. This is a big thing in Karchev's favor. It MIGHT be definitive. You are paying a LOT for Argus that often just get in the way. You have to deal with the challenges of having Argus that can be rebuked (which makes Butcher a very very sad butcher while Karchev doesn't care). Of course Butcher CAN use those argus in other matches to great effective - taunting people with the danger of triggering vengenance OR (something I have increasingly made use of, Triggering Sprint the turn the big boy goes in) to frustrate your opponent even more.
6) Personal survivability. Again, maybe this is a place for K to shine. 34 boxes, +1 ARM, unyielding. What isn't to like?? Well Def 12. Things hit Karchev that miss Butcher. Even better when Butcher gets a doge or a Morrowcon hanging out with him. Def 18 Butcher is a "fun' butcher.
7) Battlecharged vs. ?. I totally love countercharging things. But do you honestly get THAT much work out of it? A lot of my meta, after probably 100+ games into Skorne or Toros or a host of other things understands the Countercharging rules REALLY well. Takes some clock but in a majority of time (not all the time, not almost all the time, but the majority of time) people who remember that counter charge is up can GENERALLY shut MOST of it down with proper order of activation, remembering LOS rules and simply saying that MAT 7 Khador jacks might miss and that soometimes it is fine that they killed a grunt cause now the Khador jacks are more bunched up. Honestly BattleCharged feels like a spell that is there for "gotchas" - getting your opponent when they SPACE on the rule and let you countercharge and then RTW and then feat a kodiak into their caster for a GG Kill. Happens. Great. I want to rather have 17 inch threat of death always live and not relying on a brain fart. Butcher is coming for you. Run away little girl.
I get that I have a serious fanboy crush on Butcher 3. But with Jaws giving out Pathfinder and then some GREAT themes (Wolves, Zerkova in Flames) giving us a second list that near DEMANDS their "dudes be gone list" I have a hard time figuring out why the ATC people would choose some old guy in a jack over the god among men that is Butcher3.
