bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Mar 12, 2020 1:16:26 GMT
I'm not sure it would be too much. First of all we still need to see the theme benefits. If the theme doesn't do anything for beasts that alone might balance it compared to everything else in the game. Also carver is one of the most straightforward casters in the game. He still has his weakness to control affects and the common armor crackers in the meta won't care about it. Blessed, while somewhat uncommon, bypasses 3 of the 5 arm swing (mostly relevant for flames and exemplars). Also as a lot of troll players can tell you just shooting out some of the members of the stone unit until its aura is too small to be useful is a thing too.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 12, 2020 1:19:29 GMT
Well aside from all the casters except Arkadius it's just razor boars, battle boars, splatter boars, razor back, brigands, bone grinders, commandos, Agata, Maximus and Targ š Eh, we have very different ways of looking at things I guess. I'm not willing to assess the weaknesses in most of our infantry until we have a Warlock who actually wants to run them, it's a bit hard to figure out how to make a class of model functional when you'll never be touching it no matter how good it is. In terms of raw stats most pigs are pretty solid honestly, they're just slow. Commandos could get an overhaul and we could use a Desperate Pace solo. I mentioned the Razor Boar myself, but the Battle Boar? Primal sucks to actually use, but it compares pretty reasonably to other 7 point lights I always thought. The Warlocks are an interesting callout. Sturm spent much of the last year being better than Arkadius into much of the meta, though I'll concede that it would be nice to see Drang get a look at so that he isn't just a waste of space on the card. Helga1 I think has hit the point of being playable with the release of Void Archons and Flugwug, though she does have trouble finding space in a pairing. And for the solos... Agata does exactly what she was designed to do. I.e. be good in Company of Iron. Targ at 3 points is honestly pretty reasonable value. And Maximus? Ok, I don't really have a way to defend Maximus, he's a combat solo and they have to be pretty absurd to ever be worth taking. Carver with the krielstone would certainly be too much. Whilst brick breakers might be able to manage some of it in theory, arm 23 heavies is unprecedented outside feats and the odd single target buff on a tank. Well, besides Toros with Bart. Or Bronzebacks with literally anyone so long as they have their animus up and an Agoniser nearby (admittedly against ranged attacks they're a measly Arm 21 so long as the Krea aura is up). Or Woldwraths with Baldur2, on the Gargantuan side. A single target buff in that case, but not hard to cover your entire army with it really. Carver would have an edge over each of those options, but then again none of those options are remotely near tearing up the meta right now. I'd rather the theme not include Arkadius than have to mess around with the balance. I'd want it to include Midas though, ESPECIALLY if the Runebearer is included. One of the best caster attachments in the game with infantry units is a major reason for us to run the theme. I wasn't really talking about whether or not I wanted to include Midas, so much as that I think the most "natural" seeming way to limit Arkadius's inclusion would be to specify that the theme includes "Farrow Warlocks with the Farrow Warlock rule", or words to that effect, which neatly excludes Arkadius but kinda hits Midas as collateral damage. Most of these themes include a pretty limited selection of Warlocks, so as happy as Midas would be to be included in the theme I don't know that he'd be missed, per se.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Mar 12, 2020 5:01:09 GMT
Why you hating on targ and battle boars? Theyāre pretty fine actually and serve their purpose well.
I do think the farrow units could use a desperate pace solo and agata could so easily fit that role but otherwise across the board they only need at most minor changes like small point drop or a spd or rng increase. Having a warlock that would help support them goes such a long way. The only unit Iād wish theyād really change is bone grinders, but thatās more me being salty since I miss mk2 grinders being sniper teams and really did not like this anti beast approach they went with
Even out of the warlocks, the only one I really feel that needs or would most like the rework is Carver. All the others are small tweaks, like midas all Iād want is the feat to be able to revive infantry and maybe some way to have the pot come in or a way to better level out his fury between themes. Helga is honestly fine and S&D I just want drang to be more compelling to switch to in some way. Let him have warpath or some janky thing like Mosh Pit.
Also weird thing of wording. Depending on if they write āfarrow warlockā or āmodels with the farrow warlock ruleā would change if midas is in or not. Because he does have the farrow tag and the warlock tag, just not the farrow warlock rule so heās a farrow warlock technically
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Post by custardboy on Mar 12, 2020 5:07:44 GMT
Well aside from all the casters except Arkadius it's just razor boars, battle boars, splatter boars, razor back, brigands, bone grinders, commandos, Agata, Maximus and Targ š Eh, we have very different ways of looking at things I guess. I'm not willing to assess the weaknesses in most of our infantry until we have a Warlock who actually wants to run them, it's a bit hard to figure out how to make a class of model functional when you'll never be touching it no matter how good it is. In terms of raw stats most pigs are pretty solid honestly, they're just slow. Commandos could get an overhaul and we could use a Desperate Pace solo. I mentioned the Razor Boar myself, but the Battle Boar? Primal sucks to actually use, but it compares pretty reasonably to other 7 point lights I always thought. The Warlocks are an interesting callout. Sturm spent much of the last year being better than Arkadius into much of the meta, though I'll concede that it would be nice to see Drang get a look at so that he isn't just a waste of space on the card. Helga1 I think has hit the point of being playable with the release of Void Archons and Flugwug, though she does have trouble finding space in a pairing. And for the solos... Agata does exactly what she was designed to do. I.e. be good in Company of Iron. Targ at 3 points is honestly pretty reasonable value. And Maximus? Ok, I don't really have a way to defend Maximus, he's a combat solo and they have to be pretty absurd to ever be worth taking. Carver with the krielstone would certainly be too much. Whilst brick breakers might be able to manage some of it in theory, arm 23 heavies is unprecedented outside feats and the odd single target buff on a tank. Well, besides Toros with Bart. Or Bronzebacks with literally anyone so long as they have their animus up and an Agoniser nearby (admittedly against ranged attacks they're a measly Arm 21 so long as the Krea aura is up). Or Woldwraths with Baldur2, on the Gargantuan side. A single target buff in that case, but not hard to cover your entire army with it really. Carver would have an edge over each of those options, but then again none of those options are remotely near tearing up the meta right now. I'd rather the theme not include Arkadius than have to mess around with the balance. I'd want it to include Midas though, ESPECIALLY if the Runebearer is included. One of the best caster attachments in the game with infantry units is a major reason for us to run the theme. I wasn't really talking about whether or not I wanted to include Midas, so much as that I think the most "natural" seeming way to limit Arkadius's inclusion would be to specify that the theme includes "Farrow Warlocks with the Farrow Warlock rule", or words to that effect, which neatly excludes Arkadius but kinda hits Midas as collateral damage. Most of these themes include a pretty limited selection of Warlocks, so as happy as Midas would be to be included in the theme I don't know that he'd be missed, per se. The infantry are broadly available in other armies. Outside of niche (and quickly abandoned) tests, none see play anywhere despite being available in almost half the lists in the entire game. Slaughterhousers are good now but need delivery. We know Commandos suck because they wouldn't get support from any new warlock as an ambush unit but are still bad in every faction. Bone Grinders are badly designed, the Razorback is bad at its role. The thing Brigands want isn't just delivery, it's scalpeling ability. Units with Prey always demand that, so they can cycle Prey to what they actually can reach. Plus they often flounder against their Prey because their base stats are so low. I do want to see them all under an infantry caster too.
The Splatter Boar is clearly bad for its cost- its shot types are pretty weak, certainly too weak to be lumped with both RNG10 and inaccurate. Razor Boars are just another piece without a role. The Battle Boar has average-ish durability, brings Primal, and every other part is poor. Other 7 point light beasts are bad, but the Battle Boar is a lot worse in exchange for a generally required double-edged animus forcing you to take him.
Drang is a clear case. Carver has another redundant overtake ability and Batten curtails warbeast design. Helga1 has loads of low-to-mid-level tech and abilities and is unable to successfully leverage any of it. Midas is the worst DESIGNED (not weakest) caster in the game- he's a mess.
Agata I don't really mind, they can't change her rules because they're in the Company of Iron box. Maximus is another pointless combat solo with no interactions. Targ has a special rule to prevent you taking a caster attachment, he'd be just about OK as a regular solo.
Back on topic....
I do think Carver with Krielstone would be too much but you can give it a go on the table. The difference between him and other bricks isn't just the level of brick, it's what else the brick can do. A brick that has mobility, the tech of quagmire and would hit like a ton of... bricks... would outclass any other brick I think. Not everyone can even try to field a list that can crack it, and those kind of lists are very bad for the game. Honestly I'd be quite surprised if the Krielstone is even allowed.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 12, 2020 5:51:49 GMT
The infantry are broadly available in other armies. Outside of niche (and quickly abandoned) tests, none see play anywhere despite being available in almost half the lists in the entire game. They aren't friendly faction in any other lists in the entire game. Mercenary infantry units are in the same position, and the factions they work for even have ranking officers. How often do you see Mercenary units taken in lists where they aren't FF? Now, I've played Brigands a lot and my only issue with them is that I wasn't ever able to meaningfully contest zones when I was playing them. They usually ended up as the front line, but they want to skirmish and back up and they're already slow so they easily end up pushed out of scenario. A solo with Desperate Pace and a source of Tactician and I genuinely think they're fine. I'm confused as to how you can say their stats are bad, when their guns are the strongest on any unit with Prey in the game. Better range than Bloodtrackers, better POW than Croes or Idrians, twice as many shots as Warspears. That's not to say that they don't have a weird play experience where Repo and Dig In are directly in conflict, but if they were just able to get a bit more threat range and table space to play with they'd be fine. Razorbacks are actually an interesting comparison, since we have the near-identical Steelhead Cannon to compare it to. The Cannon gets Quake on its gun as the most glaring advantage. It has an extra unit member, but I feel that Repo and Tough and the high armour on the Razorback itself do a reasonable job of covering that, not to mention the Razorback's grunt actually carries a frequently relevant gun. In exchange for not having Quake, the Razorback is a point cheaper and gets to Advance Deploy. To be honest, that all seems like a reasonable exchange for me. I'm inclined to agree with you on the Splatter Boar, and Commandos really need to lose ambush and get a more clearly defined role because they're just not relevant as ambushers. The Battle Boar we'll just have to agree to disagree on. A 7 point animus bot that can also kill half a dozen infantry in a turn is perfectly good value. The majority of lights in the game get taken for their animus, the Battle Boar compares favourably within that niche. Beyond that, I think we're into the "would be nice" territory, rather than "needs". Like you say, Midas is reasonable, and Drang being useless doesn't impede Sturm overly much. I wish Carver were an infantry Warlock and an actual leader of Farrow rather than a redundant Arkadius, but I'm not going to pretend like he's in need of an overhaul per se. Back on topic....
I do think Carver with Krielstone would be too much but you can give it a go on the table. The difference between him and other bricks isn't just the level of brick, it's what else the brick can do. A brick that has mobility, the tech of quagmire and would hit like a ton of... bricks... would outclass any other brick I think. Not everyone can even try to field a list that can crack it, and those kind of lists are very bad for the game. Honestly I'd be quite surprised if the Krielstone is even allowed.
Bronzebacks with Xerxis2 have longer threat ranges, higher hitting power, more accuracy, and comparable resilience, but are admittedly a little bit easier to shoot. I can't see much of a material difference between that sort of list and what you're proposing for Carver. Their armour buffs even work against Blessed, making them superior into some of the armour cracking lists out there in the meta right now. Carver's raw numbers do look impressive, yeah, but they're not unparalleled in the game and while it would be worth testing, I don't assume the Krielstone is automatically a write-off.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 12, 2020 6:43:40 GMT
I field steelhead halberdiers and Croes in cryx in some lists. I love using the Twins with infantry in Legion and they don't buff brigands (I don't use the BB), they have marked for death and are incredible at cycling prey, but I gave up on brigands with them. I find brigands take way too much effort to make function as they are always in each other's way (yeah tactician would be nice), often can't reach their prey, often bounce off prey targets and as you know are extremely slow and squishy. They scratch the paint on marauders, miss warpwolves, can't reach cavalry, can't touch casters, and can't hit infantry with any defensive tech. They're only really good against unbuffed multiwound infantry or lights. I find due to their speed/range, their targets are often engaged and thus safe.
I've never seen a steelhead cannon (I don't think there's a steelhead player around) but quake is it's primary job right? The razorback may have other tech but it doesn't have the thing the cannon is FOR.
I've always despised the MK3 battle boar. We'll have to disagree on it. I've never seen killing spree successful (by myself or others) and it has failed every time it has attempted to so much as throw a chump, slam a heavy or kill an injured shredder. It's job is to cast primal, accept transfers and frenzy when you have too much fury out. 7 points isn't terrible for that, but it sure isn't good. More than that, they were incredible combat lights in MK2 which felt much more in line.
On to the Carver Krielstone thing, I'd really have to play it. Xerxis2 doesn't do that because the fury usage is immense and fielding anything other than derp Turtles is always wrong. At least Carver wouldn't have his quagmire incorporeal solos!
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Post by Azahul on Mar 12, 2020 8:14:41 GMT
If you're having trouble actually killing prey targets with Brigands, I kind of don't know what to tell you? They've got the best guns of any Prey unit. Anything you would fail to kill with Brigands you would fail to kill with Idrians or Bloodtrackers or Croes in equal measure, or nearly any shooting unit in the game. Rat 7 POW 14 before external buffs is excellent for a ten man single wound infantry unit. Speed would be a boon, it would mean that they can more easily get more shots into range and that they don't slow down the line of battle so much, but that's solved by a Desperate Pace solo more easily than actually changing the unit.
Quake on the Steelhead Cannon is almost an optional extra, we're talking about a list where most guns will be Rat 10+ or something absurd. It's good for making things awkward for those models you don't outright kill than anything else, but my experience into Steelhead gunlines is that survivors aren't super common anyone. It does much the same job as the Razorback, take big chunks out of hard targets while being basically impossible to get to grips with.
Bronzebacks are pretty Fury efficient honestly, and exist in a faction with the best Fury management in the game. You are right that they don't see play because of the Animantarax... but we're back to me pointing out that these feared Armour skew bricks just aren't good enough to compete in the current meta (not that the Animantarax, at 'caster indepedent Arm 22, is particularly squishy). If the reason Xerxis2 Bronzeback herds don't see play is because there are better options available in Skorne, I'm just not seeing near identical Carver lists breaking the game.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 14, 2020 23:41:34 GMT
Brigands seem fairly good on paper but on the table just... Nah. They take too much effort to support.
I'm really quite interested in Krielstone, Runebearer and Pyre Troll with Helga2. Just the Pyre Troll alone with give her a fair reason to run the theme. Her hitting power would really hit pretty obnoxious levels. Harmonious exaltation, she free casts the Pyre Troll animus, the Krielstone uses its strength buff, then she can hit at POW 21 under engine of destruction and be 14/21 near a beast and the stone.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 15, 2020 0:10:20 GMT
I like the Slag Troll more than the Pyre Troll I think, but yeah there's a lot to like about Helga with Troll support. Depending on the match-up, a Storm Troll may be good on her too. Although it's worth noting that Harmonious Exaltation and an Elemental Troll animus don't quite make up damge-wise for losing the Bone Shrine, Soul Slave, and Void Archons, but you aren't throwing away an 8 point model every time you commit so that's a boon.
Axers also bump up her threat ranges to the point where she gets the alpha with her army a lot more consistently, so it's definitely a theme I can see her having a lot of fun in. Probably the Warlock I'm most excited to see with Troll Warbeasts on paper.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 15, 2020 2:59:38 GMT
I like the slag troll too, but I think I prefer the pyre for shoot and scoot, and if I'm taking a beast to buff my caster I know I'll take the cheaper one. Also fire is more common than corrosion for the immunity.
She loses good tech pieces but I'm happy to skip them, have quite similar ability, and have more army. I know Mire is decent with her for clouds but I'd much rather have a Mauler on her for Rage and use the Krielstone and Earth's Blessing for her durability. I'd rather have Rush available than have to use Road Hogs for decent threat.
Oh I just thought of Pyg Burrowers on a flank, popping up and walking to engage a bunch of things, then throwing Primed on them.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Mar 15, 2020 10:47:50 GMT
it depends on what you're looking for. at 8 points the Pyre troll is basically a gun boar with mini-rage for itself and the caster, a worse gun that has continuous fire instead of high-explosive, and +1 pow in melee (before the animus). oh, and 'it burns' is a pretty cute ability. slag troll hits harder by an additional +1 pow, but his gun lacks an AoE. and of course he hits hard against constructs, but is it really hard enough?
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Post by Azahul on Mar 15, 2020 11:03:57 GMT
Yeah, I don't particularly rate their respective guns, so I'm mostly looking at it from the perspective of being happy to pay 2 points more for a light that can potentially scrap a Khador heavy. It is match-up dependent, but it feels more likely to be consistently useful than the Pyre Troll's gun. It's definitely a personal preference/match-up thing though.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Mar 15, 2020 11:35:35 GMT
Yeah, I don't particularly rate their respective guns, so I'm mostly looking at it from the perspective of being happy to pay 2 points more for a light that can potentially scrap a Khador heavy. It is match-up dependent, but it feels more likely to be consistently useful than the Pyre Troll's gun. It's definitely a personal preference/match-up thing though. depends on what you're playing against, yea. I get the impression that (most) everything north of early 2018 is stupid amounts of ARM-skew, so if you're playing in anything but a casual environment the slag is probably the way to go.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 15, 2020 12:45:36 GMT
I don't know that armour skew has been really prevalent (the last true "skew" list I can remember was Gaspy3 nine slayers, but the advent of high offensive stat lists like Primal Terrors mostly drove defensive skews from the meta nearly two years ago at this point), but it's more a case that I would rather pay a few extra points for my support piece to be able to double as an occasional work horse. Even without Erosion, the Slag Troll is +1 Mat, P+S, has Assault, and an extra point of armour for whenever that could be useful.
Of course if Fire Eaters are in the theme then that becomes a separate consideration, though I can't say that I'm particularly expecting them.
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Post by trout on Mar 16, 2020 13:41:09 GMT
I am thinking the Gatorman Soul Slave is out. Canāt see Dhunia being a fan of that model on any level. Hope the Runebearer and Targ are in.
Krielstone is tricky. Tough to imagine Trolls without it but thereās been a movement to get rid of the reliance on it for quite a while. Maybe they try to do that here with a theme benefit? Speaking of which, I wonder what that might be, healing of some sort?
I would guess that Northkin specific models and casters would be out. They already have a theme and they are some of the most played Trollblood models (ha, who still plays Trolls?) going.
From the Troll side I am thinking Gunnbjorn with a couple of Road Hogs and an Axer would be a neat place to start. Kill Shot, Explosivo, Guided Fire all seem good. Would LOVE it if Fire Eaters made it in somehow as the Pyre Troll, FE combo that goes so well with Bearka would be lovely with Helga2.
2cents
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