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Post by custardboy on Mar 11, 2020 8:31:53 GMT
What form do we expect this theme to take? More militant (Brigands in Kriel Company style) or more of the religious follower type? Personally I'd like to see the religion expressed more, as that's always been ignored in Farrow.
There will probably be some serious restriction on the available Trollblood warlocks. Hard to guess which warlocks without knowing if it religion or militant based.
We've already had mention of Azazello working well with Trollkin Champions, so they are likely available. Axer and Gargantuans may be disallowed because of Arkadius. Pyre Troll with Helga2 would be massive. We may just be looking at Troll heavies.
Dhunian knot are a given. Runeshapers seem likely.
Krielstone is unlikely unless Carver changes. I kinda doubt the Battle Engines at this stage.
On the pig side of things, I think they initially want to include all Farrow warlocks (given Hungerford talked about Arkadius) and I see no reason for any particular Farrow piece to be excluded. Maybe a few solos and the Meat Thresher. We might be looking at the the theme being a case of: Choose caster, everything is the same faction as that caster, you can take 2 Trollblood units and 2 Farrow units. Something like that.
Ideally, I'd just like a mass of Farrow infantry with some actual synergies, caster support, and theme benefits. I doubt that would happen though.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 11, 2020 8:44:25 GMT
I believe we've seen more recent comments from supposed playtesters suggest that Arkadius and Midas are not in the theme, which leads me to think that they found Arkadius to be too much in theme and that they found the most elegant solution to be to only allow Warlocks from the pig side with the "Farrow Warlock" rule. Not much more than unverified rumours per se (they haven't come from anyone with a PPS account) but that seems pretty believable to me, it's pretty much how I'd handle things in their shoes.
I'm not sure about Champions either. The exact context of them plus Azazello was something along the lines of someone saying they would like to see him run them, and Hungerford responding with a "wouldn't that be something hey?" Or words to that effect. I would like them in theme, them plus double Dhunian Archons plus Helga1 for Defenders Ward seems obnoxious, but I'm not taking that as explicit confirmation.
The initial Insider spoiling the theme really put the emphasis on guns over religion. There will be one "helpful Minion" in the CID and the rest will be Trolls too, so I'm not expecting much dev focus on legacy Farrow models. It feels more Kriel Company plus than Dhunian in focus from that, but given how broad KC is as a theme I'm not sure what they'd do to differentiate the new theme. Presumably they would go down a route similar to Storm of the North vs Band of Heroes, I.e. with a more limited range of models with some of the new CID models being the equivalent to Bears in that they're the primary enticement to play the new theme (plus the Minion access). I'm expecting the theme options to be more specific units called out by name than categories as a result. More "Troll Sluggers" and "Farrow Brigands" than "Trollkin units and solos with ranged weapons" and "Farrow units", but that's really just pure speculation.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Mar 11, 2020 11:12:35 GMT
I am hopeful for Champs + double Dhunian Archons being allowed in the theme. From the troll side it needs something to strongly differentiate it from Kriel Company.
I think the new units are going to be what really affects the direction of the theme (at least for trolls, idk what all is going to happen for the farrow). I'm not really sure what I'd like to see the theme do, as I think what trolls have already covers almost all their subthemes well. I still maintain that trolls lack stable hitting power, but war hogs will do a good job making up for that.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 11, 2020 11:27:02 GMT
It would be unfortunate if they don't decide to fix any of the Farrow stuff, but you're probably right that they'll just look at troll things.
It could well be just 'Trolls with War Hogs' actually. As much as I think most Farrow pieces are poor, the War Hog itself is one of the best warbeasts in the game for its cost.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Mar 11, 2020 12:01:25 GMT
I hope they do look at the farrow stuff. I would like both factions to get some much needed buffs.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Mar 11, 2020 12:17:22 GMT
The way they phrased it in the devpost it sounds like there'll be some big honking guns in the theme, so maybe new artillery pieces and large solos a la MoW tankers. It's explicitly cygnar tech, so maybe electric + arc nodes.
That said, I also hope they'll add at least one religious flavored model.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 11, 2020 12:20:20 GMT
I mostly feel like Farrow infantry are the only models that need looking at, and Razor Boars could get an overhaul I guess. But the first obstacle facing Farrow infantry is that we don't have a Warlock that would want to run them no matter how good they are. If Azazello lives up to the hype and is a legitimate infantry-focussed Warlock then I think that will give a decent idea of what, if any, buffs Farrow infantry really need. After the Oblivion buffs to pig Warbeasts I tend to feel that pigs are mostly in pretty good shape, the only complaint I've ever had on pig infantry is that I can't deliver them easily and that they're too slow on scenario and to be honest with the trench templates and Dhunian Archons that first complaint is pretty well mitigated.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Mar 11, 2020 14:04:21 GMT
Sturm&drang are the only other farrow lock that I don’t necessarily think would make it into the theme. the weird hybrid abomination is probably not what dhunia has in mind for religious folk
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Post by charlzheimer on Mar 11, 2020 14:26:54 GMT
i would Strongly recomend all farrow casters allowed are helga, carver, midas and azello. Leaving out strum and arkadius. arkadius in particular cuz holy Firetruck he would be insane.
second of all, focus on farrow agression. them all beeing glass cannons would fit perfectly while trolls are the BULK/defensive models.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Mar 11, 2020 14:31:43 GMT
So as a troll player, what would make Arkadius so overpowered in this theme?
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Post by Azahul on Mar 11, 2020 14:37:55 GMT
So as a troll player, what would make Arkadius so overpowered in this theme? Not overpowered so much, but he'd break PP's own restriction on no shooting deployment zones Top of 1 if you gave him access to Rush. Edit: There are other potentially problematic elements. Rush puts his melee threat ranges into the 20s. His Feat is technically a second activation so he can make even Gargantuans threat the board. Krielstone helps alleviate his traditional weakness of being fast but fragile. Those are more mutable though, their brokenness or not would need to be decided in testing. But shooting deployment zones before the opponent has had a turn? Minions have already seen a theme force get nerfed (WWFF's first couple of iterations) to stop exactly this, so there's every reason to believe that on that facet alone he'll be cut from the theme. It's either that, or he distorts the entire theme around him, and to be honest I'd rather have a functional theme that expands the depth of play than a theme that is only even functional with Arkadius because everyone else's lists got nerfed to account for him being in it.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Mar 11, 2020 14:49:46 GMT
So as a troll player, what would make Arkadius so overpowered in this theme? Not overpowered so much, but he'd break PP's own restriction on no shooting deployment zones Top of 1 if you gave him access to Rush. I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Mar 11, 2020 18:16:04 GMT
Realistically though, they could allow Arkadius in if they don’t allow the axer in for rush, but Arkadius is easier to write out and I’m happy that he stays as just a minions thing. Him with gargantuan is good, not ridiculous though even with rush, but the top of 1 stuff is the real problem, even as janky and below 1% success it is to be a good play
Edit. The other half was if carver or the krielstone even should be in the theme since having the entire battle group be arm 22-25 every turn is really problematic as well. Just spam lights and I don’t think even armor cracking lists can easily break through it all
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Post by Azahul on Mar 11, 2020 23:54:04 GMT
Eh, you may be underestimating modern armour-cracking lists. I don't know that Flames or Faithful Masses or even older lists like Primal Terrors or Dark Host care too much about those armour levels, and pig lights will really struggle to do work in return. The current scenario packet isn't particularly favourable to bricks either. It would be something worth testing, but I'm not super scared of it on paper.
Carving out the Axer for rush, i.e. one of the support pieces most exciting to all the other pig Warlocks, just to get Arkadius into the theme is one of those "distorts the entire theme around himself" concepts that I truly hope they avoid going for.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 12, 2020 0:22:51 GMT
I mostly feel like Farrow infantry are the only models that need looking at, and Razor Boars could get an overhaul I guess. Well aside from all the casters except Arkadius it's just razor boars, battle boars, splatter boars, razor back, brigands, bone grinders, commandos, Agata, Maximus and Targ 😁 Carver with the krielstone would certainly be too much. Whilst brick breakers might be able to manage some of it in theory, arm 23 heavies is unprecedented outside feats and the odd single target buff on a tank. I'd rather the theme not include Arkadius than have to mess around with the balance. I'd want it to include Midas though, ESPECIALLY if the Runebearer is included. One of the best caster attachments in the game with infantry units is a major reason for us to run the theme.
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