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Post by darbysghost on Feb 19, 2020 20:15:06 GMT
Interactions between just three models: Ravyn the Warcaster and Two Manticores.
Question: If I've upkept Snipe on one Manticore, have it Activate before Ravyn to move, then lay down *Covering Fire at Range 16" (normal Range+Snipe), then have Ravyn Activate next, and swap Snipe over to the 2nd Manticore to do the same thing, or whatever....does the 1st Manticore's Covering Fire Range need to be backed off by 4", or does it remain at the 16"? (And please tell me why in either direction)
As an aside: Snipe is an Upkept spell, so the wording does not denote a Turn or a Round, of course. The Manticore has a blurb near the bottom of the *Covering Fire text that reads: "...The template remains in play for one round. If this model is destroyed or removed from play, immediately remove the template from play." Which is what got me thinking....if destroying the Manticore (of course) affects the *Covering Fire Template, then does doing other things to the Manticore, affect his range for *Covering Fire?
Follow up: Would other Debuffs that affect the Manticore's range, lower the range of an already-placed *Covering Fire template?
Thank you in advance; I have great respect for my Elder-Elves.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 20, 2020 13:40:33 GMT
Interesting observation!
Covering fire says it's based on RNG, and snipe improved the base RNG stat, so they should stack.
If you look at covering fire's wording, it makes no mention of placement, only model destruction. Ergo, completely irrelevant, once the template's down it's down. The only thing that matters is your effective range when you put down the template.
Your manticore could lose snipe, repo back, get moved further by the trident, get hit by multiple Shyeel mages and thrown backwards into a sandstorm AOE, doesn't matter, if it's still alive the template is staying.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 20, 2020 14:06:40 GMT
Exactly what shmeep said. The template was placed in a legal position at the time of activation and it isn't moved back simply because nothing says that it does. Warmachine as a whole has a pretty tight rule set, so very few rule interaction have to be inferred; most situations will spell out exactly what happens. |
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Post by darbysghost on Feb 20, 2020 19:38:59 GMT
So...it should more-aptly be called: "Remote Detonation", or something like that? Rules-wise, that makes sense to me...fluff-wise, I am confused why they would call it "Covering Fire", and only have the wall template affected if the source dies. (As I think the range and position of a model across an entire round should matter, rather than it being a single turn. (Though, I understand it needs to be a Round to be worth consideration at all)
As a follow-up, am I understand that every model's card says exactly what the model is capable of, it's just up to me to both understand all the terms that go into it, as well as find the peice-interactions myself?
So, at the very least the only "gotchas" each model's abilities may or may not have are the only terms I don't yet understand?
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 20, 2020 22:01:12 GMT
So...it should more-aptly be called: "Remote Detonation", or something like that? Rules-wise, that makes sense to me...fluff-wise, I am confused why they would call it "Covering Fire", and only have the wall template affected if the source dies. (As I think the range and position of a model across an entire round should matter, rather than it being a single turn. (Though, I understand it needs to be a Round to be worth consideration at all) As a follow-up, am I understand that every model's card says exactly what the model is capable of, it's just up to me to both understand all the terms that go into it, as well as find the peice-interactions myself? So, at the very least the only "gotchas" each model's abilities may or may not have are the only terms I don't yet understand? It's called covering fire because it represents just that, volleys of continuous bullets raining down on a spot. The reason it doesnt move with your model is simplicity. Imagine if you had to track the location of every model that genrated a cloud, aoe, CF, or other effect. Game's complicated enough as is. Most situations are covered by the rules, but case by case examples always exist. Usually, if that's what's written then it do be like that, but if you have doubts you can always turn to the forums. So yea, just about what you said. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 21, 2020 7:59:37 GMT
As a follow-up, am I understand that every model's card says exactly what the model is capable of, it's just up to me to both understand all the terms that go into it, as well as find the peice-interactions myself? So, at the very least the only "gotchas" each model's abilities may or may not have are the only terms I don't yet understand? The basic rules always apply, specific model rules that reference their interaction with a basic rule supersede that rule. So, yes, it is up to you to understand piece interactions, as it wouldn't really be feasible to put full examples on every card of every single possibility. Note though that everything in Warmachine is open information and there are no "hidden" tricks. You can always ask your opponent for information about "how far can this model charge", or "how hard does it hit". At the very least, they will be obligated to give you their cards, but most of them are nicer and just explain it to you. Do keep in mind that the vaguer your question is, the harder it will be for them to answer it completely. |
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Feb 22, 2020 16:04:34 GMT
So...it should more-aptly be called: "Remote Detonation", or something like that? Rules-wise, that makes sense to me...fluff-wise, I am confused why they would call it "Covering Fire", and only have the wall template affected if the source dies. (As I think the range and position of a model across an entire round should matter, rather than it being a single turn. (Though, I understand it needs to be a Round to be worth consideration at all) As a follow-up, am I understand that every model's card says exactly what the model is capable of, it's just up to me to both understand all the terms that go into it, as well as find the peice-interactions myself? So, at the very least the only "gotchas" each model's abilities may or may not have are the only terms I don't yet understand? Pretty much yeah. The rule set is purposefully tight so nothing needs to be inferred or speculated. If questions still arise you can always ask your opponent, a good sport will always help you, or turn to the forums and facebook pages. Note however that there are exceptional cases where rules would interact weirdly in unintended manners. In such cases the infernals over at the PP forum put out verdicts on how the interactions should play out (E.g. the interaction between blood bound and vengeance on the legion of lost souls in the flames in the darkness theme). Even the tightest system isnt impervious to occasional ambiguity. |
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Post by darbysghost on Feb 28, 2020 2:41:33 GMT
Thank you, folks. As always, I appreciate the help and clarity. <3
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Mar 2, 2020 15:25:22 GMT
get hit by multiple Shyeel mages and thrown backwards into a sandstorm AOE, This seems oddly specific...... |
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Mar 2, 2020 22:46:47 GMT
get hit by multiple Shyeel mages and thrown backwards into a sandstorm AOE, This seems oddly specific...... Just another day at the office. |
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 26, 2020 11:10:28 GMT
Cycling the upkeep was a long exploit since MKI(or MKII, for Snipe spell because Snipe in MKI requires you to put all the focus you have in order to get the full effect), and it is totally legal.
But because it is not so broken it wasn't banned at all. For example, upkeeping Snipe costs you 1 focus, and casting it requires you two more. Also there is the order of activation as well.
Most casters are have focus point around six, and the exploit burns out a half of entire pool of your caster's resource, not just 1/6 of the resource by upkeeping the spell. And as you know, your caster's focus point is always precious.
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