shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 20, 2020 13:23:45 GMT
I disagree that it's a dangerous sentiment. It's the pattern of the development cycle that's existed since PP adopted this process. Just watch, it'll happen again with the Legion CID. I remember my opponents complaining about Even Ground on Madrak 1 after he got his update. Now, he doesn't even see table time for me because his game is completely understood and counterable now. I want to see trolls and farrow shift the meta a bit and have the ability to ask my opponents a serious question again. The best thing I think I'll actually see coming out of this theme is the ability to run double Dhunian Archons and double Champs. "mom said its my turn on the overpowered theme force!" That's still a shit game design philosophy. Instead of focusing on who gets their turn on Mr Wilson's wild ride, PP really ought to be focusing on making sure existing models aren't completely trounced by the newest hotness and balance the game out so models don't become obsolete after 3 months. I know why they're doing this, it's to push sales on the new stuff, but it's completely cynical and I doubt it's healthy for the game.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Feb 20, 2020 13:39:31 GMT
I disagree that it's a dangerous sentiment. It's the pattern of the development cycle that's existed since PP adopted this process. Just watch, it'll happen again with the Legion CID. I remember my opponents complaining about Even Ground on Madrak 1 after he got his update. Now, he doesn't even see table time for me because his game is completely understood and counterable now. I want to see trolls and farrow shift the meta a bit and have the ability to ask my opponents a serious question again. The best thing I think I'll actually see coming out of this theme is the ability to run double Dhunian Archons and double Champs. "mom said its my turn on the overpowered theme force!" That's still a shit game design philosophy. Instead of focusing on who gets their turn on Mr Wilson's wild ride, PP really ought to be focusing on making sure existing models aren't completely trounced by the newest hotness and balance the game out so models don't become obsolete after 3 months. I know why they're doing this, it's to push sales on the new stuff, but it's completely cynical and I doubt it's healthy for the game. So instead of "overpowered" new models (that aren't actually overpowered, just new and therefore unsolved problems), you end up with "overpowered" old models (which are functionally the same as new models, since their rules are changed except that everyone already owns them and thus they don't generate new revenue). The game is inherently unbalanced. There will always be some models that are comparably better than others. But the biggest factor I see in how overpowered "new" models are isn't their different stats, it's that they are new. They are unknowns and their full capabilities are a mystery. They generate mistakes from your opponents due to the unfamiliarity of your opponents with your models. New models' (or updated old models') biggest strength comes from this. Things you don't know can seriously cost you. In the game I played this week, my opponent didn't know that blasts that land inside a trench still deal blast damage to any models in the trench and in the area of the blast. Meanwhile I didn't know he could score 4 points on scenario and I lost as a result. I suck at scenario play.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 20, 2020 13:47:11 GMT
"mom said its my turn on the overpowered theme force!" That's still a shit game design philosophy. Instead of focusing on who gets their turn on Mr Wilson's wild ride, PP really ought to be focusing on making sure existing models aren't completely trounced by the newest hotness and balance the game out so models don't become obsolete after 3 months. I know why they're doing this, it's to push sales on the new stuff, but it's completely cynical and I doubt it's healthy for the game. So instead of "overpowered" new models (that aren't actually overpowered, just new and therefore unsolved problems), you end up with "overpowered" old models (which are functionally the same as new models, since their rules are changed except that everyone already owns them and thus they don't generate new revenue). The game is inherently unbalanced. There will always be some models that are comparably better than others. But the biggest factor I see in how overpowered "new" models are isn't their different stats, it's that they are new. They are unknowns and their full capabilities are a mystery. They generate mistakes from your opponents due to the unfamiliarity of your opponents with your models. New models' (or updated old models') biggest strength comes from this. Things you don't know can seriously cost you. In the game I played this week, my opponent didn't know that blasts that land inside a trench still deal blast damage to any models in the trench and in the area of the blast. Meanwhile I didn't know he could score 4 points on scenario and I lost as a result. I suck at scenario play. You yourself acknowledged the power creep just one reply ago. Tharn and Exalted weren't stronger than everything before them? Remember the Firetrucking Clockatrice? And now Archons are completely dominating the scene, and flames has some absurd combos with its shield guard/vengeance fest. You can't honestly tell me you think an Archon is comparable in power to other 8 point models.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Feb 20, 2020 14:15:53 GMT
So instead of "overpowered" new models (that aren't actually overpowered, just new and therefore unsolved problems), you end up with "overpowered" old models (which are functionally the same as new models, since their rules are changed except that everyone already owns them and thus they don't generate new revenue). The game is inherently unbalanced. There will always be some models that are comparably better than others. But the biggest factor I see in how overpowered "new" models are isn't their different stats, it's that they are new. They are unknowns and their full capabilities are a mystery. They generate mistakes from your opponents due to the unfamiliarity of your opponents with your models. New models' (or updated old models') biggest strength comes from this. Things you don't know can seriously cost you. In the game I played this week, my opponent didn't know that blasts that land inside a trench still deal blast damage to any models in the trench and in the area of the blast. Meanwhile I didn't know he could score 4 points on scenario and I lost as a result. I suck at scenario play. You yourself acknowledged the power creep just one reply ago. Tharn and Exalted weren't stronger than everything before them? Remember the Firetrucking Clockatrice? And now Archons are completely dominating the scene, and flames has some absurd combos with its shield guard/vengeance fest. You can't honestly tell me you think an Archon is comparable in power to other 8 point models. I don't expect perfection from PP. I acknowledge that they make mistakes and overtune things sometimes. But that's what nerfs are for. It's ridiculous to assume that PP will or should get it right every time in both directions. Some things will be strong enough to warrant a Nerf for the health of the game, other things will appear strong because they are good and new and thus they don't have known counters yet. I don't get to play much, and my meta is small. I don't have direct experience with the army lists you mentioned but are they completely dominating the scene? Or is there still a variety of lists that place and/or win tournaments? A statistical analysis of tournament winnings should yield good data to answer that question. I don't have the data to answer it, however. As for the Archons specifically, I do have experience with them. There aren't many 8 point solos to compare them with, but there are plenty of light warbeasts and Warjacks in that range. When compared to lights, yes I would say they are about equivalent. They generally have fewer attacks and less health, but more consistency and are battlegroup independent. I would say they are possibly undercosted by a point, maybe 2 in lists that can really leverage their strengths, but then the army building aspect of the game is all about finding ways to maximize the strength of your models.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 20, 2020 19:55:24 GMT
I disagree that it's a dangerous sentiment. It's the pattern of the development cycle that's existed since PP adopted this process. Just watch, it'll happen again with the Legion CID. I remember my opponents complaining about Even Ground on Madrak 1 after he got his update. Now, he doesn't even see table time for me because his game is completely understood and counterable now. I want to see trolls and farrow shift the meta a bit and have the ability to ask my opponents a serious question again. The best thing I think I'll actually see coming out of this theme is the ability to run double Dhunian Archons and double Champs. Given that the focus of the theme is on guns, expecting Champions to be in it is a stretch. Anything is possible, but they don't seem to match the theme. Regardless, you don't need to warp the meta or ask a question to compete, let alone to have a good game. Maybe I've been a Minion player too long, but I've always found adapting to the meta to be the more interesting part of list design, rather than having the meta bend to me over a new release. That said, I don't actually think CID has yielded power creep in too many cases historically. Even Tharn only really overtuned the Lord of the Feast (and the Storm Raptor a tad, but it's more solvable just because of the point investment it represents). As a list they became a whole lot easier to deal with after the nerf to that one solo.
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Post by mydnight on Feb 20, 2020 23:16:15 GMT
Dunno what went wrong with PP's Cid. Trenchers, Trolls were generally fine. Northkin only seemed pretty powerful at the time because trolls were pretty dead at the start of MKIII.
By the time it hit Legion, things were starting to go way over the curve. I think they kinda calmed down a bit after Pagani left, but Flames just had too many things and interactions to test to expect it to come out balanced. Void, Morrowan and Menite Archons are definitely underpriced or could see with a hit box reductions. However Flames is a very limited theme, so in that respect it will quickly fall out of the meta once things emerge that can counter it well, which is probably what PP wants.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 21, 2020 1:03:19 GMT
People were crying about power creep for all of them. I just think this community generally has difficulty determining what constitutes power creep and what constitutes something new and relevant at the top of the meta. Sort of like how people go back to complaining that Ossrum is OP whenever there's nothing particularly egregious stomping around. I don't think anyone would call Primal Terrors broken now, and it's not because everyone started playing Devourer's Host when it came out. That's what Power Creep would look like.
Take the Archons. I don't actually think they're that over the top for their price point. It's more that they're a model archetype that people aren't used to seeing. Compare them to most spear-and-shield style Light Warjacks, and you'll usually find that they are in the same realm defensively (slightly better stats, about 60% of the boxes on average I think) and trading access to battlegroup buffs and being able to purchase attacks for utility and typically better initials. That's not absurd, not really, but when they released people weren't generally equipped for the "defensive light" sort of profile.
Similarly Flames is good, but it's a bunch of mostly single wound infantry that hit like trucks. I don't find it materially different to playing into Skarre1 Banes. Similarly problematic to shoot down at range, similar potential to crack anything they touch, and similarly predictable threat ranges (so long as you aren't handing them vengeance on a dime). That's not to say that PP hasn't gone over the top in places, but I think generally the balance is much more firmly on the side of "good, strong releases that cause the meta to adapt and keep the game interesting" than it is on the "actually broken releases that are unhealthy for the game" than most people think. It's just kind of hard to take a step back in the moment when you're being smashed by something new and work out if it's because the new thing is broken or if you're just running one step behind the meta in terms of your list design and practice.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Feb 21, 2020 10:55:08 GMT
The Archons have about half as much Health as a light and maybe a bit more Def. Menite is meatier, but Void has like 12 Boxes. My opponents so far were concernced if the Archons were actually making their points back! Yes it takes two hits to kill, but not that much more. A light is harder to remove, unless your attacks are very inaccurate. I think the problem is mostly the output and mobility of the Void Archon and the Primal being not very good.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Feb 21, 2020 12:00:36 GMT
It's too bad about the Primal Archon too since of all the Archons I actually like that one's rules and appearance the best.
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Post by meksmaks on Feb 21, 2020 17:05:53 GMT
Kriels, are we sure to know that the mixed theme will be both Dhunia AND gun oriented? I know that both of these things were announced for Trolls and Minions, but maybe these will end up separately e.g. new shooty models in general and on the other hand a traditional magic/brawl army.
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Post by anoddman on Feb 21, 2020 17:18:38 GMT
Kriels, are we sure to know that the mixed theme will be both Dhunia AND gun oriented? I know that both of these things were announced for Trolls and Minions, but maybe these will end up separately e.g. new shooty models in general and on the other hand a traditional magic/brawl army. I think given that the theme's release is happening at the same time as Gunnbjorn2 is being released, there's some expectation for everything to play nice together. Brigands are also the most iconic Farrow unit, and they're pretty gun oriented.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Feb 21, 2020 18:44:18 GMT
What if Gunnbjorn 2 is a melee beatstick though?*
* This post brought to you by sarcasm.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 21, 2020 19:53:05 GMT
What if Gunnbjorn 2 is a melee beatstick though?* * This post brought to you by sarcasm. *Gunnbjorn glaring at Ragnor as he straps a missile to the end of a stick*: I'll show you what a real warhead weapon looks like
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 21, 2020 21:39:15 GMT
What if Gunnbjorn 2 is a melee beatstick though?* * This post brought to you by sarcasm. *Gunnbjorn glaring at Ragnor as he straps a missile to the end of a stick*: I'll show you what a real warhead weapon looks like Gunny2 but it's just Siege2 with blue skin, and every time he uses the jump ability you center a 5' blast aoe on him.
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Post by mandra on Feb 21, 2020 22:13:06 GMT
What if Gunnbjorn 2 is a melee beatstick though?* Plot twist meme anyone?
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