jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Feb 3, 2020 6:22:46 GMT
I don't have that much time to play and our local group have only one Infernal player and they seems to be the new HOT that dominate tournaments.
SO: How do actually infernal play and especially what would they play against trolls? Where are they strong and what are they weaknesses?
What I have understand:
- they like to collect souls, so less infantry and dhunia archon would be good start? - they rely on sacrificing cheap infantry so killing that would be good BUT Zaateroth reduce ranged range so it's not that easy. Spray attacks are value? - Umber guards are best shield guards on whole game as they can block spray
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 3, 2020 6:53:16 GMT
My limited experience is you need to be threatening to pull off a horror a turn without sacrificing too much (easier said than done) and if you can threaten their marked souls it is good.
I've been dropping kolgrima BoH into it as that's the best option I've got in my pair. I've been wondering if using jarl snipe out marked souls isnt a terrible plan.
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Post by anoddman on Feb 3, 2020 18:34:15 GMT
Actually, the JJrH Runeshapers list plays very well into Infernals. Arcane Vortex on Mulg can ruin Agathon or Zaateroth's day, Zaat can't abuse Black Spot because the unit sizes are so small, two 10" bubbles of no soul collection stops stuff from getting out of hand, Runeshapers absolutely shred horrors, and everything in the list is accurate so you're not worried about Zaat's feat.
I've yet to play into Omodamos or Flames in the Darkness with it, so I can't speak to those matchups.
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Post by profdikweed on Feb 10, 2020 12:28:11 GMT
Jarl has good game into infernals. With magic bullet, snipe and eyeless sight he can reliably remove two to four marked souls a turn.
Long shadows and shield guards only affect attacks on friendly models. Run an LR deep into the enemy lines pop two magic bullets on it from downtown and watch the infernal player cry at the lack of interaction as two marked souls get removed from the table.
Additionally, if you have a hermit troubling you and you don't want the mystical explosion stuffing up your plans, magic bullet doesnt count as an attack. If you get him to one health then magic bullet him he just dies fairly anti-climatically.
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Post by Kevin on Feb 16, 2020 18:10:59 GMT
Currently runnin Jarl against Infernals. Magic Bullet is the money killer in this matchup cause none of infernal defensive tech works againast it. Ya can target your own model so no shield guard, decelaration and self-sac doesnt work. Unfortunetly its Jarl so he is more or less depended on 1 theme force. Against my local Infernal player I have some good results, will see in short future how does it(or if I will even get to play againast) on bigger con in 2 weeks But at least in theory my list should also play well against Grymkin.
Not sure bout Grissel PoD list against it. Have it in my pair, but not a fun of having Runeshapers try their luck against armour 21 heavies, and Mulg cannot be everywhere on the table.
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Post by mandra on Feb 16, 2020 22:01:54 GMT
But at least in theory my list should also play well against Grymkin.
I have some problem against grymkin/infernals too what's your list with jarl?
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Post by Dev Null on Feb 16, 2020 23:15:22 GMT
I have limited experience against them, but in my couple of games the strategy of chewing through all of the marked souls was a non-option. Too many of them, played too far back, with too much defensive tech. It may be their weakness, but they know it, and it's just too easy for them to keep a few safe.
Dhunian Archons are fantastic anyways, and bonus points against Infernals.
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Post by profdikweed on Feb 17, 2020 2:11:35 GMT
Currently runnin Jarl against Infernals. Magic Bullet is the money killer in this matchup cause none of infernal defensive tech works againast it. Ya can target your own model so no shield guard, decelaration and self-sac doesnt work. Unfortunetly its Jarl so he is more or less depended on 1 theme force. Against my local Infernal player I have some good results, will see in short future how does it(or if I will even get to play againast) on bigger con in 2 weeks But at least in theory my list should also play well against Grymkin.
Not sure bout Grissel PoD list against it. Have it in my pair, but not a fun of having Runeshapers try their luck against armour 21 heavies, and Mulg cannot be everywhere on the table.
Grissel1 runeshapers works real well into infernals. She can hand out a -6 def buff, -4 armour buff and arm21 will crumble against Mulg at that point. Remember lock the horns doesnt help with the Runeshaper magical attacks.
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Post by Kevin on Feb 17, 2020 6:24:19 GMT
She can hand out minus 4 defance(deafen and calamity) to one model(if opponent know how to position), and -2 armour in hermit aura + -2 on calamity target. of course hermit can telemetry and basher can Icy Breath,but basher will just die, and it still will mostly affect one model. And decceleration from Ragna works against Runeshapers magic attacks. The problem is not bout killing one heavy with calamity a turn. It's rather easy. It's more bout treading down in value and with every unit of shapers down we kinda loose it. Need to try to play that match up, but currently why pGrissel is my main list, trying some off lists to play it better.
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Post by nighthaunter on Jun 7, 2020 23:54:53 GMT
After playing vs infernals with trolls alot. This is what i have found. Zaat - one of the best toolboxes in the game Agathon - best spellcaster in the game Omodamos - best brick in the game
There is nothing bar magic bullet that they dont have an answer for, & if the infernals player does not misplay/misposition there seems to be little we can do to win in most matchups.
With regards to zaat: A standard band of heroes brick seems to do ok if played well.
With regards to agathon: Keep yourslef safe from his assassination and a standard band of heroes brick can do ok into it if played well.
The problem is Omodamos with 7 heavies by turn 3. I have gievn up looking for a solution.
With regards to taking out marked souls, if the infernals player does not misposition, you flat out, cannot get to them. Jarl is great but i have found that even with his range he has to move up to be in assassination range after my turn has ended after dropping a solo or two. Furthermore he has no feat in that matchup. Even with magic bullet, decleration is a huge pain, and they can play so far back that it is very hard to get to them on occasion.
On the PoD list mentioned above. Decleration will be in every list, given regna is free and the best solo in the game. So runeshapers are dice off 7 on 2 dice.... Given how cheap horrors are and are summoned on solos, no beast brick we bring can trade well into them.
Bar bring Jarl (into naive) opponents. I just cant see any of the suggestions here working.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 8, 2020 1:24:07 GMT
Omodamos isn't that great a brick. His heavies are Def 11, Arm 21 with the boxes of a light Warjack. Killing seven of them is only about equivalent to killing five heavy Warbeasts or Warjacks, by and large. If you struggle against them I shudder to think how you go into the likes of Grymkin or Skorne.
I'm not a Troll player, my own experience against Infernals has mostly been that if you have a better threat range than them (which is usually relatively easy) you can control the game, smash a critical mass of their relatively squishy heavies on an alpha strike, and ride things out from there. Doomshaper2 seems like a reasonable pick if you want to replicate that in Trolls? And I've seen the Grissel1 Runeshaper list table Infernals a few times now, though as a spectator I have to leave it to those who actually play the list to explain how that works. It generally seems to me that the Runeshapers are content just trade pieces all game and eventually it reaches the point where the Dhunian Archons are just getting too efficient and the Infernals player runs out of models.
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Post by mandra on Jun 8, 2020 10:29:24 GMT
Omodamos isn't that great a brick. His heavies are Def 11, Arm 21 with the boxes of a light Warjack. Killing seven of them is only about equivalent to killing five heavy Warbeasts or Warjacks, by and large. If you struggle against them I shudder to think how you go into the likes of Grymkin or Skorne. I'm not a Troll player, my own experience against Infernals has mostly been that if you have a better threat range than them (which is usually relatively easy) you can control the game, smash a critical mass of their relatively squishy heavies on an alpha strike, and ride things out from there. Doomshaper2 seems like a reasonable pick if you want to replicate that in Trolls? And I've seen the Grissel1 Runeshaper list table Infernals a few times now, though as a spectator I have to leave it to those who actually play the list to explain how that works. It generally seems to me that the Runeshapers are content just trade pieces all game and eventually it reaches the point where the Dhunian Archons are just getting too efficient and the Infernals player runs out of models. Are you an infernals player?XD Killing "only" 5 warbeasts/warjacks is a lot of hardwork, plus def 11 arm 21 is pretty good, that's the armor of menoth jacks.
I played several times against infernals and always lose, I'm a relatively new player but they're really good in evereything, and for me, at the moment master the grissel runeshapers list is too complex and hard, even if I really like the concept!!
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Post by Azahul on Jun 8, 2020 10:57:50 GMT
Are you an infernals player?XD Killing "only" 5 warbeasts/warjacks is a lot of hardwork, plus def 11 arm 21 is pretty good, that's the armor of menoth jacks. I played several times against infernals and always lose, I'm a relatively new player but they're really good in evereything, and for me, at the moment master the grissel runeshapers list is too complex and hard, even if I really like the concept!!
Oh, don't get me wrong. Omodamos is a solid Master, and Infernals are always tricky for new players to handle. But seven Horrors with Unyielding and Deceleration honestly hovers somewhere around the middle for bricks, not the top, and I would say he gets that high because his hit points are dispersed across more models (which is inherently more difficult to bring force to bear against) than because his stats are good. Five or six heavies is a lot, you're right, but it's also arguably about the norm for most "brick"-type lists. A Grymkin Dark Menagerie list will be in that realm, for example, and outside of Hordes you get lists like Karchev running a great deal more. Frankly, I'm more worried about a Borka2 brick than an Omodamos one, though sadly Valin Hauke means that I can't see Borka having a good time into Infernals himself. I'm not an Infernals player, just someone who honestly quite enjoys playing against them. They're a fun puzzle to unpick. If you're having trouble against Omodamos, another recommendation I can think of is to try and snipe out some Cultists. He might be able to protect his Marked Souls, but Omodamos spends a lot of Essence quite selfishly and relies on his cultists to refuel. If your opponent is bringing Regna then by Turn 3 he'll have often killed 5-6 Cultists himself. If you can then kill, say, three Cultists yourself in that time, he'll be in a position where keeping his Horrors fuelled becomes pretty hard, which in turn makes Dhunian Archons more effective because two of them will basically shut off a heavy's entire activation each round. Surviving to that point is the trick, of course, since he should get 1-2 turns of having a large number of fully loaded horrors to jam down your throat, but the efficiency does wane as the game drags on.
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Post by mandra on Jun 8, 2020 11:40:11 GMT
Are you an infernals player?XD Killing "only" 5 warbeasts/warjacks is a lot of hardwork, plus def 11 arm 21 is pretty good, that's the armor of menoth jacks. I played several times against infernals and always lose, I'm a relatively new player but they're really good in evereything, and for me, at the moment master the grissel runeshapers list is too complex and hard, even if I really like the concept!!
Oh, don't get me wrong. Omodamos is a solid Master, and Infernals are always tricky for new players to handle. But seven Horrors with Unyielding and Deceleration honestly hovers somewhere around the middle for bricks, not the top, and I would say he gets that high because his hit points are dispersed across more models (which is inherently more difficult to bring force to bear against) than because his stats are good. Five or six heavies is a lot, you're right, but it's also arguably about the norm for most "brick"-type lists. A Grymkin Dark Menagerie list will be in that realm, for example, and outside of Hordes you get lists like Karchev running a great deal more. Frankly, I'm more worried about a Borka2 brick than an Omodamos one, though sadly Valin Hauke means that I can't see Borka having a good time into Infernals himself. I'm not an Infernals player, just someone who honestly quite enjoys playing against them. They're a fun puzzle to unpick. If you're having trouble against Omodamos, another recommendation I can think of is to try and snipe out some Cultists. He might be able to protect his Marked Souls, but Omodamos spends a lot of Essence quite selfishly and relies on his cultists to refuel. If your opponent is bringing Regna then by Turn 3 he'll have often killed 5-6 Cultists himself. If you can then kill, say, three Cultists yourself in that time, he'll be in a position where keeping his Horrors fuelled becomes pretty hard, which in turn makes Dhunian Archons more effective because two of them will basically shut off a heavy's entire activation each round. Surviving to that point is the trick, of course, since he should get 1-2 turns of having a large number of fully loaded horrors to jam down your throat, but the efficiency does wane as the game drags on. Thank'you, really good explanation for a counter strategy!
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Post by nighthaunter on Jun 9, 2020 23:24:24 GMT
Good ideas, i have found after prioritising the support with long range guns im staring down just too many heavies.
Omo spends 1 for synergy, and 2 for locked horns, 0 on feat turn. Plus hermit can give escence, including omo! In a decent size bubble. Dhunian archons have been great but having 2 implies your in PoD.
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