ttp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by ttp on Feb 2, 2020 20:45:45 GMT
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 2, 2020 22:43:43 GMT
Hey, welcome.
I partially agree with what Gordo said. The Krea and Agonizer can fit into almost every single list, so they should be some of your first picks. I don't consider the Shaman, Willbreaker and Soulward mandatory, but they're very nice to have - they can lead to support bloat if you run all of them. Beyond that I also agree with what Zich said in the thread. your first mandatory purchase should be a max (x6) unit of Paingiver beast handlers, two if you want to run a beast list, after that it's really up to you. do you want to run beast heavy? combined arms? infantry spam? gunline? once you have a better understanding of what you want to run, it's easier to know what to aim for. And I'd recommend writing up a clear list (preferably two) before you start buying anything, owning a ton of models but being to create a single cohesive list is every frustrating. trust me, you don't want to put yourself in that position.
If you scroll down in the thread a bit, I don't think any of the lists are competitively viable, but if you're just getting into the game that shouldn't really be on your mind right now. Just build a list that has pieces you like and at least some basic synergy.
Is there any warlock in particular that appeals to you?
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Post by michael on Feb 3, 2020 5:21:33 GMT
What appeals to you so far?
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ttp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by ttp on Feb 3, 2020 19:18:14 GMT
Thanks for the answers. so far i like Xerxis, Fury of Halaak (the model) and Makeda1. i also like the hydra modell. i would like one list with beasts and one with warrior modells i orderd the starter box and i will try to make some list in the next days. will post them
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Feb 3, 2020 20:31:25 GMT
Hey, welcome. I partially agree with what Gordo said. The Krea and Agonizer can fit into almost every single list, so they should be some of your first picks. I don't consider the Shaman, Willbreaker and Soulward mandatory, but they're very nice to have - they can lead to support bloat if you run all of them. Beyond that I also agree with what Zich said in the thread. your first mandatory purchase should be a max (x6) unit of Paingiver beast handlers, two if you want to run a beast list, after that it's really up to you. do you want to run beast heavy? combined arms? infantry spam? gunline? once you have a better understanding of what you want to run, it's easier to know what to aim for. And I'd recommend writing up a clear list (preferably two) before you start buying anything, owning a ton of models but being to create a single cohesive list is every frustrating. trust me, you don't want to put yourself in that position. If you scroll down in the thread a bit, I don't think any of the lists are competitively viable, but if you're just getting into the game that shouldn't really be on your mind right now. Just build a list that has pieces you like and at least some basic synergy. Is there any warlock in particular that appeals to you? Oh wow. Looking back now, I don't even agree with myself... I never run Willbreakers (because I never run Masters of War any more), and i only occasionally run Shamans (because I don't need to clear enemy upkeeps like I used to, thanks to meta shift and Supreme Guardians) and Soulwards (thanks to Guidance being available through objectives and non-spray shooting being difficult to use thanks to all the Shield Guards and similar effects running around). But yeah, Agonizers are in every list I run, Kreas in ALMOST every list I run. They don't make it into Exalted lists because the best ranged attacks into them deal continuous effects on a either a spray or a scattered AoE, both of which punish models for clumping 3" around a Krea. I still run Kreas in anything that is beast heavy or anything that uses Shield Wall.
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Post by michael on Feb 3, 2020 22:54:04 GMT
Thanks for the answers. so far i like Xerxis, Fury of Halaak (the model) and Makeda1. i also like the hydra modell. i would like one list with beasts and one with warrior modells i orderd the starter box and i will try to make some list in the next days. will post them I should still have a strategy write up I did for a new Skorne player in a Journeyman League a couple years ago. Let me see if I can find it and update it for you.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 4, 2020 12:19:39 GMT
Thanks for the answers. so far i like Xerxis, Fury of Halaak (the model) and Makeda1. i also like the hydra modell. i would like one list with beasts and one with warrior modells i orderd the starter box and i will try to make some list in the next days. will post them I've seen some people run Xerxis2 with the Hydra, apparently it's a solid combo. Xerxis2 is a bit of an odd one, he wants to go battlegroup heavy thanks to his +2 speed buff, but because he has such a lot FURY stat he needs to run a small battlegroup, which is why the Hydra is a good pick for him. Here's a list Jaden from LoS runs: Xerxis2+28 - Agonizer [0/7] - Agonizer [0/7] - Archidon [10] - Basilisk Krea [0/7] - Desert Hydra [35] - Titan Gladiator [15] Siege Animantarax [17] Siege Animantarax [17] Feralgeist [2] Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] It's an incredibly fast list. The animantarax has a native speed of 8, thanks to Xerxis2 native +2 spd buff the archidon's 9, titan is 6 and has the rush animus for another +2, the agonizers are 7, the Krea is spd 8 and the hydra's speed is 7. As far as I can tell the main downside of this list is that it doesn't attrition very well, you want to get in a brutal alpha and hope that cripples your opponent hard enough that they can't recover. I'm not crazy about the feralgeist, but there's not much better you can do with the points. it just gives you a tiny bit more safety on scenario, which is definitely a weak point for this list. you could theoretically run two gobber river raiders for even more scenario options, but they're easier to kill. if your opponent has magic guns, the gobbers are better, otherwise you'd be better off sticking with the feralgeist. alternatively, you could run Xerxis2 with a larger battlegroup, and really make use of the blackhide wrastler's +3 STR rage animus, but I don't really think he's the guy for that kind of list. haven't tested either kind of list myself, mind, I've only seen battle reports, but that's the impression I get. ----------------------- Makeda1's first pick is pretty much always going to be Molik Karn. After that there's the matter of which infantry exactly you want to run. If you want a proper infantry swarm, Makeda2 might be a better choice for you - she gives Praetorian Swordsmen vengeance, and has Makeda1's feat as a passive ability (at the cost of fury instead of health), so if you want to run 3 max units of swordsmen+CAs, basically wolves of winter in Skorne, that's your address. If you want to run Exalted, Makeda3 is a better pick for that, I think. I'm not that familiar with Makeda1, but I recall seeing people recommending to run her with the Ferox riders. Makeda1's more combined arms than pure infantry, so the 2017 skorne army box isn't exactly a terrible place to start. Her feat means you want infantry that's actually hard to kill and worth saving, and jackhammer + threat extenders means she wants hard hitting beasts. innate shield guard makes Scarabs tempting, even if they're more expensive and less useful nowadays. She doesn't offer any damage buffs, so she wants models that hit hard on their own, and she gives retaliatory strike, which again means hard hitting models become more attractive. Mortitheurge Willbreaker has some cool synergy with her - he can grant a unit tough, which together with her feat can make some units very annoying to kill. Just keep in mind that grievous wounds completely shuts this down. Cetrati with Vorkesh in shield wall and agonizer are ARM 22, steady, can't be debuffed (directly), DEF 13 vs charge attack rolls, DEF 13 vs ranged/magic in Krea bubble, 15 if you add Quicken, with 5 boxes each. Under feat, each time they're killed, they survive on a 5/6 with tough, otherwise Makeda can pay a wound to keep them alive, and then they get to hit back thanks to ret strike, at effective P+S 14. That won't put a dent in most heaviest unless you roll really hot, but it's enough to deter infantry and some lights. Not putting a whole load of thought into this list, mind. As I've said, haven't played her yet. I actually ordered the army box last year, but it never came. I'm not sure about including the Hermit here, she needs damage buffs badly, but this army also suffers a lot from armor debuffs. Makeda1 +29 -Molik Karn [19] -Titan Gladiator [15] -Aradus Scarab [3] -Aradus Scarab [3] -Agonizer [7] -Basilisk Krea [7] -Aptimus Marketh [0/5] Hermit of Henge Hold [5] Tyrant Commander [0/6] Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18] -Tyrant Vorkesh [0/6] Ferox Riders (max) [20] Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] ------------------------ Makeda1 could also make good use of the Supreme Guardian, but at that point you're playing a poor man's Exalted, which begs the question - why not play Makeda3 in Exalted? So I think something like this should be ok, more or less. I'd considering cutting out some elements from this list, maybe a/the scarab(s), maybe replace the ferox with an SG after all, dunno. some more solos could help with scenario presence. Makeda1 +29 -Molik Karn [19] -Titan Gladiator [15] -Aradus Scarab [3] -Agonizer [7] -Basilisk Krea [7] -Aptimus Marketh [0/5] Supreme Guardian [16] Extoller Soulward [3] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Hermit of Henge Hold [5] Tyrant Commander [0/6] Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18] -Tyrant Vorkesh [0/6] Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] -------------- 2017 edition: Makeda1 +29 -Molik Karn [19] -Titan Gladiator [15] -Basilisk Krea[7] -Aptimus Marketh [0/5] Zaadesh1 [4] -Titan Gladiator [15] Orin Midwinter [5] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [0/4] Gobber River Raider [1] Tyrant Commander [0/6] Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13] -Swordmen Officer [4] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] -Karax Officer [4] Legends of Halaak [8] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] ----- All said and done it also really depends on what kind of armies you'll be facing with your friends. If everyone's going to copy meta lists, you really shouldn't be looking at Makeda1, but if it's just for fun games and no one's going to reach for Tharn/Exalted/Harbinger/Tridents anytime soon, these should probably be good enough for you.
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ttp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by ttp on Feb 4, 2020 13:04:22 GMT
thank you all for your great help. thank you shmeep for the lists so which catser is a "meta" caster? i will face khador, menoth, cryx most of the time
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 4, 2020 13:21:49 GMT
thank you all for your great help. thank you shmeep for the lists so which catser is a "meta" caster? i will face khador, menoth, cryx most of the time depends on what your friends will run. the general rule is this - the newer the model, the more powerful it is. I think the only Khador setup that's truly oppressive right now is Vlad1/2 running Wolves of Winter Doomreaver spam, I think the rest is more manageable. Cryx has strong options in Skarre3 Broken Coast, Skarre1 and Asphyxious. Menoth's meta casters are Cyrenia and Harbinger Faithful Masses - Harbie is so strong that she used to dominate almost every recent tourney, and now after a small nerf she's still extremely strong. So, again, it depends on what your friends are running. None of them are going to be playing at tourney skill level, but the power of your army is relevant. If they're running stuff like Karchev or Harkevich in khador, Tenbrous or Scaverous in Cryx, or Amon in menoth, you won't need to worry about fine tuning your lists too much. Keep in mind that the Xerxis2 list I've shown you -is- pretty oppressive. I don't like the Animantarax because of how stupid strong it is (like most of the battle engines), so the rest of the players in your group will most likely have a very bad time playing against you if they're bringing casual lists against these monstrosities. >as an aside - to any native english speakers, is it 'the list I've showed you' or 'the list I've shown you'? google's not much help and it's really bothering me now.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 4, 2020 13:36:45 GMT
here's an example of a meta Vlad2 list, lifted straight out of Azahul's blog:
Vlad2 -Grolar -Marauder Doom Reavers -Escort Doom Reavers -Escort Doom Reavers Doom Reavers Ternion Ternion Alexia2 Void Archon Void Archon Koldun Lord Koldun Lord
Doom Reavers hit hard and have long threat ranges thanks to apparition, and Vlad2's feat makes them even more brutal. Ternion gives them recursion, Alexia gives even more. The Void Archon is a merciless (and new!) model, with insane mobility, an armor debuff aura and a spray attack, and Koldun Lord hands out debuffs or extra recursion. It's a list that can hit hard, hit fast, and can handle attrition well thanks to recursion.
I can't find any up to date Harbinger lists right now, but she's effectively always run in Faithful Masses. she can take 3 units of initiates of the wall as requisition options, which means she has 9 x 20 armor shield guards who never die thanks to her martyrdom ability, a host of strong solos / cavalry that almost never dies thanks to martyrdom, and she's usually taken with the judicator colossal which has extremely strong AOEs. I think she's run with the Menite Archon now, although I'm not sure. It's another new and very strong model, so it wouldn't surprise me if she is. All of the Archons except the Primal are very strong, and the primal isn't bad either.
[Harbinger 1] The Harbinger of Menoth [+27] - Judicator [35] - Hierophant [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] Hand of Silence [7] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [4] Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4] The Covenant of Menoth [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [5] Initiates of the Wall [0(7)] Initiates of the Wall [0(7)] Initiates of the Wall [0(7)]
I'm really not 100% sure about Cryx. With Gaspy4 on the horizon, I imagine there's going to be some new bullshit lists coming out soon, most likely in the mixed Cryx+Convergence faction.
Would be best if you just asked your friends what their lists look like, that way we can better judge if they're running fun lists or ball busting machines.
I also suggest you take a look at WarmachineUniversity, the rules for every single model are there, so you can start familiarizing yourself with the models.
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Post by michael on Feb 4, 2020 19:32:29 GMT
thank you all for your great help. thank you shmeep for the lists so which catser is a "meta" caster? i will face khador, menoth, cryx most of the time For what it’s worth: “the meta” is a lie. As a construct, it is only relevant if you’re the type of person who plans to spend a lot of time traveling to conventions and playing in tournaments. “The meta” leads to a lot of groupthink and stagnation and arbitrary limitations on players. Unless you plan to do that, the only players you need to be concerned with are the players in your local area who you will actually play against.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 4, 2020 20:47:06 GMT
thank you all for your great help. thank you shmeep for the lists so which catser is a "meta" caster? i will face khador, menoth, cryx most of the time For what it’s worth: “the meta” is a lie. As a construct, it is only relevant if you’re the type of person who plans to spend a lot of time traveling to conventions and playing in tournaments. “The meta” leads to a lot of groupthink and stagnation and arbitrary limitations on players. Unless you plan to do that, the only players you need to be concerned with are the players in your local area who you will actually play against. I don't entirely agree with you there. Like it or not, there will always be certain builds and models that are objectively better than the competition. On an even playing field Tharn, Exalted, Twins, Wolves etcetera will crush something like Legions of Steel every time. 'The Meta' as an abstract concept just means what's powerful and sees competitive play right. And no, there's only so much you can do against meta lists. If the other guy's comes packing (pre-nerf) Harbie, your casual list isn't going to win, even if you try to tech against her. The tourneys proved as much. But as both Michael and I said, all that matters is your group. If they're casual, don't try to steamroll them. If they're building meta lists, you should do so too.
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ttp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by ttp on Feb 4, 2020 20:57:10 GMT
In our group it is mixed. Little of all. Thanks for the great input and the list. I realy want to try the Xerxes list because i like the Models I also read right now about the units It seems that the Siege Animantarax is hard to get right now. When not ordering directly from pp.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Feb 4, 2020 21:34:00 GMT
In our group it is mixed. Little of all. Thanks for the great input and the list. I realy want to try the Xerxes list because i like the Models I also read right now about the units It seems that the Siege Animantarax is hard to get right now. When not ordering directly from pp. Depends on where you're buying. What continent do you live in? I could look if I can find any stores in your country. If you're willing to buy new it makes things easier.
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ttp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by ttp on Feb 5, 2020 5:15:41 GMT
I live in Europe, Austria. Some things to get here is very hard.
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