Post by lorddragonmaster on Jan 24, 2020 20:42:27 GMT
I’m coming from Sorcha3 AK & Karchev list experience (and I’ve only been playing for about a year, and not very well ), but I really want to learn to play a Vlad3 list (and start painting them).
I’m trying to understand what this list plays well into. It doesn’t seem to have the volume of attacks of an infantry list or heavy armor. I get the army is fast, and hits hard on the alpha, but short of the Judicator blasting away what infantry it can, how does it deal with the extremes?
It doesn’t looks like it has the damage output to take on heavy armor, or the volume to take on armies with lots of units. Or likely I am completely misunderstanding how it plays.
Would anyone be able to give me some tips, or general idea on best practice for this theme? (ie. is it better to spread out, or keep your army close? Who do you send up first? Archons? Champions?)
[Theme] Warriors of the Old Faith
[Vladimir 3] Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey [+27]
Speaking with no experience playing the list myself. With vlad 3 the list looks to play very fast with hit and run tactics, like you said.
Dealing with mass infantry, you have plenty of high volume attack options that pair well with vlad.
-Fenris, three initials, berserk -Menite Archon, vengeance, 2 initials -Vlad, flashing blade, 3 intials -Gun carriage (one of the best BE in the game) -Judicator.
Vlads feat turns himself, fenris, and somewhat the archons into infantry mulching machines. The gun carriage loves the repo and HOF. The judicator pumps out infantry hate in the form of blast and sprays. Also, all the cav models have better use of their impact attacks because of line breaker.
As for breaking armor, may be a big more restricted, but wouldnt say the list is hurting. HOF is just a great spell, put it on an of the cav models and watch them hit like a truck. The Judicator once again just fills this roll.
Comments on your list. I have heard from others who played WOTF that the hermit and initiates are a bit too slow for the rest of the list, maybe not worth bringing.
Vengers vs Uhlans, i think it's a toss up, they hit a bit harder on the charge, but are worse on the follow up. If the vengers get battle driven it's a different story, so i think they're a solid pick.
Here's my take
War Room Army
Khador - 00 - Warriors of The Old Faith
Theme: Warriors of the Old Faith 75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey - WJ: +27 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27)
I highly disagree with the comments on the Hermit and the initiates of the wall, both are key to making the list work where other khador list don't.
I've played the list a lot, the sad part is that the list works on very few actual khador models. Mine currently has only two Khador models, Vlad3 and Yuri.
It's a weird list to describe, because it plays ok into a lot of stuff but isn't balls busting against stuff like say Vlad2 Wolves can be.
It has the tools to play into guns better than most of our lists thanks to access to good shield guards (read here Vilmon and the initiates instead of paying for an overpriced shield guard like a rager in vanilla khador land) and the choir, it's probably our best theme to play into guns after Zerkova1 Flames (being our best anti gun list). As for volume of attack it has a lot more than you'd think, all the cavalry models have two or more attacks, on charge turn with line breaker impact hits you can get a surprisingly high number of attacks with only a couple of models, the two light cav units, outriders and flame brigners also bring a big volume of attack for their points and are both ideal hand of fate targets, both can decimate units easily. Hitting power isn't as problematic as you'd think with the archons and flame brigners having grevious wounds and crit grevious respectively, access to the hermit also helps with that, and well, the judicator tends to punch things dead. What you have is mobility and high threat range, every workhorse model can be halfway up the board and threathen the scenario elements on turn two, and you have some vengeance and reposition move mixed in there for extra mobilité, a lot of people with think twice about killing a flame bringer if it means getting an archon to the face. It also has a great mix of models that work well together, the archons are good, start your list with two, the judicator is great especially with infernal machine, start your list with one, choir are great, also include them. I think one of the problem people have when building the list is going ham on the big solos, the solos are good, but don't invest too heavily into them, going for two champion of the wall and a drakhun is a good way to lack volume of attack, even though these solos are all good individually. Alway bring at least one full unit of cavalry.
Flame brigners and outriders are a toss up between which on is best, they both do the same job, just differently, I like the flame bringers in my lists more at the moment because my pairing already has a full unit of outriders in the other list and I don't need redundant weakness in my lists if my opponent has models that deal with outriders (spell hate, frost immunity, rebukke). But if you're not pairing warrior of the old faith with wolves there is an argument to be made for outriders.
The sad part is when you start comparing the vengers to the ulhans, the vengers are just better, the problem with ulhans is that for being durable they need to bunch up and that's an issue, they end up covering way less board than the vengers, blessed, magic attacks and being actually able to fight once engaged is just gravy on top. For the same point cost the vengers are just better and I would pick them over the ulhans in 100% of my lists.
With Dash the hermit gets up the board quickly enough, it wont affect all the things on turn two, but it will be releveant by turn 3. The list also has the mobility to play with his armor debuff, with reposition it's very easy to charge something and benefit from it and then reposition outside of the bubble and not be affected by it in return. Vlad's feat is a terrible feat, so don't play your game around it, but between the feat and dash in general I haven't affected much of my own stuff with the hermit. Mad vision on a clutch attack is also a great way to throw a wrench in an opponent's plan.
No Fenris, Vlad3 feels like the perfect caster to make him really shine. Almost all the Cav models except uhlans are good choices.
Have you actually gotten value out of the hermit/initiates? With cavalry being 17-19" up from the deployment, initiates would practically have to be directly behind the shield guard targets and the cav models would have to forego dash/pull back. Hermit is great, and if you have room and get value i guess why not.
Fenris just doesn't seem all that necessary, between impact hits, archons thresher, flame bringers attacks and side step and the judicator's shooting I've never had a problem being swarmed by the kind of models fenris wants to go after. He's probably not bad, but I'm just not sure what I'd cut into the list to actually fit him in, the way battle driven works on the vengers you really want a max unit.
Dash is +1 spd so it would be 18-20'' up the board, but that doesn't mean you need to go the full distance, especially if you already cover all the zones. If the other side has guns you can keep stuff within 3'' of them and not just go the full distance, keep in mind that with dash the initiates run 14'' up the board so they are not that slow either, if they do the full run the other things can go 18'' up the board and still be covered by the initiates (if my calculations are correct, 14'' run 3'' shield guard 2ish'' base size). With reposition it's also not that hard to have your things go and then repo back to where the initiates can activate and protect them. Since they are not a requisition choice I don't think I'd take more than one unit, but the one unit it totally worth it. They are also a good cheap unit to leave in a zone you've cleared and have your cavalry units not need to babysit the zone.
As for the Hermit, when are you not going to have room for him when he is a requisition choice and the requisition choice in warrior of the old faith are terrible, you start all your list with Vilmon and the Hermit anyway, then go for either Yuri or the two vassals, there's not a thousand ways to go about it.
I like the hermit to help Vlad actually do some work, because without blood quench vlad really hits like a vegetarian, and you really can't always rely on blood quench. With the hermit and Vlad's feat or simply reposition you can usually do some work and then sprint back to safety, Vlad's feat isn't great but a lot of games I ended up using it just for Vlad himself, with that he can usually do some work and stay safe. The mad vision is also great to protect big models from one big hit and possibly juste save it, mad vision can easily be the difference between a living and a dead archon. The hermit is also really a dumb model on scenario, park him near a flag or in a zone and look at your opponent struggle to try to score that zone.
Interesting, vengers with HOF in the one game i played were quite nasty. Impact plus their charge attack can get work work done. I listened to a khador podcast recently that hyped me up on victor with choir + HOF too.
The gun carriage and spray ponies have been on my mind to cram in a list but i havent made it work yet.
I know this is not a reason from a competitive POV but if i were to play WOF i dont know if i could stand paintinf another cav unit. Painting my Uhlans for LoS killed my soul. If i could get away without cav, my soul would rejoice.
I think you're really missing out on the theme if you don't run any cavalry units in the theme, and well, good thing is, if you want to run the list optimally you won't need to paint any more ulhans, since you have really no reason to run them considering the alternatives.
jonnyboy The victor might not be bad, having access to a choir is clearly good, but is it going to be better than a judicator? I have to admit I do like the idea of auto being pow 14 into archons, with flak fire really helping out here.
Post by lorddragonmaster on Mar 16, 2020 13:07:19 GMT
I can't imagine not running the Vengers, though I don't think I could spare the points for another unit (though I'd like to). HoF on them till there is only 1-2 left and then swapping it to Vlad or Judicator for serious damage.
The solo's are great, no doubt, but for the Dragoons you're paying too much for them.
Also not sure I could give up the Judicator for Victor. POW 14 sprays (choir + archon) are great! And 14", POW 16 rockets, with attack and damage rolls off 5 dice, dropping 2 lowest (HOF+Reliquary+boosted) are nice!
Judicator's spray with Battle and the archon actually get up to pow 16
The victor is not bad, but the 1 spd on the judicator makes a big difference and the judicator just does more damage at range than the victor, the only thing where the victor is better is range, but since the judicator can threat beyond zones from turn two forward, it's still a tough sell on the victor over the judicator. Running 14 on the first turn to be able to keep up with the rest of the list is actually pretty big for the judicator, having jacks lagging behind the reste of the army is pretty bad, and also probably one of the reason the judictor is so popular in this theme.