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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 19, 2020 4:10:48 GMT
Hi all,
Long time Khador player, now venturing out into Legion.
Have always thought the Twins looked really interesting and after several reads of the Tao of the Twins and anything else I could find I got a list together and got a game in yesterday. Really enjoyed them a lot! Game was against Zaateroth (I think that's their name...), one of the Infernal casters. Ended with Rhyas decapitating Zaateroth. Had options for attrition, but it was getting late so decided to go for it. Anyway, I wanted to share the list I used and see if anyone had any pointers for some refinement. Here's the list:
Ravens of War
Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight +24
-Blightbringer -32
-Golab -17
-Harrier -0(3)
-Harrier -0(3)
-Nephilim Protector -10
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion -0(6)
Gremlin Swarm -3
Grotesque Assassin -0(4)
Blighted Nyss Raptors (Max) -18
Grotesque Banshees (Max) -13
Hellmouth -6
So between Occultation on the raptors and the grotesque assassin aura there's a lot of stealth going around. The harriers interact nicely with the banshee sprays, blightbringer and raptors too thanks to Mark Target from the theme. Force Barrier, stealth aura and blightbringer effects keep the banshees well protected on the way in. Hellmouth and gremlin swarm help with scenario while the sorceress gives Golab (and the harriers) free charges and otherwise is a fast tough-ish solo.
Main place I'm not sure on is Golab, should he be a seraph? That'd leave 3pts, 6 if I dropped the gremlin swarm. I thought these could become a forsaken and two spell martyrs. But I'm not sure that actually improves things. Golab was actually legit in this game, finishing off the gate after it was damaged by a boosted Razor Wind from Saeryn before sprinting to an annoying spot if I hadn't gone for assassination. He also RFP-ed a wretch to mess with soul gathering stuff. Also having access to sprint really opened up my options for the final turn if I went for attrition/scenario. The protector also helped make this feel better.
So basically, any thoughts? Any glaring issues with something that could be a little better with a different option?
I'm not looking for super-competitive, but just aiming to have competent lists really.
Cheers,
Dave
P.S. Current plan is to pair with Abby1 beast heavy. She looks fun too.
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Post by custardboy on Jan 19, 2020 23:05:43 GMT
It isn't how I run it, but it looks like it should work quite well in its own way. I prefer raiders to banshees but you can decide after playing a bit.
I'm not a fan of the protector, I just find it is almost never worthwhile and is much too expensive as a shield guard. I also consider the seraph an auto include with them, slipstream is vital for them. There is so much utility in it. I suggest giving it a try and see if you can go back. Sprint is great and Golab is all around good though, so I'd try dropping the protector, gremlin and jig some points to get the seraph.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 20, 2020 7:33:15 GMT
Thanks for the thoughts!
I like the banshees for the blast immunity (which combines nicely with stealth) and being able to use Marked Target to make the sprays more accurate. However the only way I can see to get the seraph in without dropping Golab is to drop the protector and gremlin swarm and swap to raiders. I'll try that out and see how it goes.
Other option is to drop Golab for the seraph and have 3pts left over. The protector could become a naga nightlurker, leaving 5pts. 3pts for the gremlin swarm leaves 8, which could be valkyries..? The seraph and nightlurker also add to the ranged element of the rest of the list too.
Cheers,
Dave
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209 
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Post by eauc on Jan 20, 2020 9:26:02 GMT
My list has a different gameplan, but with enough common elements that maybe it can gives you ideas ?
[Theme] Ravens of War
[Twins 2] Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight [+24]
- Blightbringer [32]
- Golab [17]
- Seraph [14]
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)]
Hermit of Henge Hold [5]
Spell Martyr [1]
Strider Deathstalker [0(4)]
Strider Deathstalker [0(4)]
Blighted Rotwings (max) [12]
Blighted Rotwings (max) [12]
Hellmouth [6]
- I always play a seraph with the twins. I find them unplayable without. You need the extra threat range to profit from Rhyas correctly. Otherwise I find it's too easy to just deny her charge by hiding behind terrain etc.
- the sorceress brings free charge to Golab who usually really need it to garantee the free fury for the sprint. also good scoring solo.
- the module BB + birds + stalkers brings a lot of pressure on opponents heavies, and distract them from the threat of Rhyas.
- Hellmouth is really a great terrain holding piece, but in many games it was able to drag a few more victims into Rhyas range, and well if you can take a piece with Rhyas without having to sprint, and while staying within 6" of the BB, it's all good for you since the list can be really complicated to play.
- the BB really buff everything in the list efficiently, and has good combos with the twins spells (especially with M4D and flare, you can reach really high MAT on your hitters if you need to.
- finally, I find the Hermit too good to passup with the Twins. Telemetry is gold on M4D, and vision is really good to make Rhyas that extra hard to kill. Especially now that she has sprint to go back into the Hermit bubble. In late game a good-placed ruin can really crank up your remaining pieces output (particularly the BB and Hellmouth), and I've always found that the twins struggled with heavy armor towards late game before he came in.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 21, 2020 4:12:16 GMT
Thanks again for the feedback! So I think I've got 3 versions I'm considering at the moment, each with pros and cons. I'll try each and see how I go, then report back!
Is interesting seeing people say they don't rate the protector, when it was listed as so important in the Tao of the Twins thread. Is this because lists have changed in general since then?
I'm torn on the seraph, but will try it. She has a charging threat of 12" as it stands, which already seems great. Sure 14" is of course better, but is it worth 14pts? Will try and see. Obviously it can be used to reposition after attacking and such too, so there is that to think about. Will try it out. But thinking Golab and the seraph might be too much..?
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by copperflame on Jan 21, 2020 15:29:19 GMT
If the Protector was cheaper, definitely. I think it is more that the other parts of the list are more valuable that the Protector for their cost - at least in my experience. I always want it, just can't fit it.
Seraph gives you multiple 2" placements and I can't stress how much that helps mobility in my games - getting charge lanes, keeping the 8" bubble, ducking behind cover... the list goes on. The gun on the Seraph also synergizes well with M4D - more icing than cake but its not without merit.
Can't wait to hear how it all goes though!
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 22, 2020 4:09:03 GMT
Thanks!
Have got it down to two lists, both now running blightbringer, Golab, free harriers and seraph for a battlegroup. Basically one list squeezes the Hermit in and the other doesn't. I'm not convinced the sacrifice made to get the Hermit is worth it though, so will test. Basically with the Hermit I have a min unit of raptors, but without him I drop the raptors entirely and get scouts with UA and Craelix.
Got a game lined up for tomorrow, so will either be playing one of those options or my Abby1 list. Will add a battle report to my reporting blog on Friday. I'll take screenshots from Vassal, so hopefully I'll work out how to add those...
Thanks again for the help all!
Cheers,
Dave
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 22, 2020 9:26:16 GMT
I'm torn on the seraph, but will try it. She has a charging threat of 12" as it stands, which already seems great. Sure 14" is of course better, but is it worth 14pts? Will try and see. Obviously it can be used to reposition after attacking and such too, so there is that to think about. Will try it out. But thinking Golab and the seraph might be too much..? It's not so much the absolute increase in range. It's about how many models in the game are threatening at 12" ? at 14" ? Going from 12 to 14" allows you to out-threaten a LOT of melee models. It's even more important for Golab. At 11" base, he's going to get alpha-striked by most melee heavies/troops in the game (and a lot of colossals). Heavies that almost always will tank a charge better than him, and cost 2 to 5 points less. So yes, basically, you want to go as fast as possible. I also consider the fact that scenario zone are 12" long, meaning those extra charge inches between 11/12 and 13/14 are extra-important for positioning. And, there is also the matter of caster kills  So extra 2 inches can make a big difference for the positioning of 6/7 focus wardudes... So really, while adding 2" to 12" may not seem like much, in this particular game, I think it makes a huge difference. I've tries playing without this 14pts crutch a lot. Everblight models are already very pricy without paying such a huge tax. But I played a lot of games were I was just out-ranged in melee by heavies with ARM20, P+S20 and free charge. It's not a fun situation. You can ask minions players how it feels to play like that all the time  |
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Post by custardboy on Jan 25, 2020 23:38:00 GMT
As above, the Seraph pushes the threat range into the exceptional category. Also, the twins are CONSTANTLY casting for each other. You move one then move the other, so they can slipstream each other.
Turn 1 Seraph slipstreams Rhyas forwards and she runs. Saeryn channels through her from 16" instead of 14" then fails a charge. They don't have to be in formation for channeling, just control.
They are surrounded by dudes. Rhays casts flashing blade. Saeryn slipstreams Rhyas. Rhyas casts flashing blade again. Rhyas walks and flashing blades again.
Being less concerned about Saeryn, the enemy caster has moved up a bit. Seraph slipstreams Saeryn, she runs 16" (plus 2" melee), Rhyas charges something in that direction. Feat to change places, Rhyas now attacks enemy caster.
They are behind terrain. One peeks out from behind to either cast or channel Saeryn's spells, then the other slipstreams the other back to safety.
There is a nice group of enemy models but Rhyas can't get the angle/landing zone (because directly facing after charge), only able to catch 1-2 in melee. Rhyas charges where she can, Saeryn charges after and slipstreams Rhyas into a new spot where she faces 4-5 models and murders them all. This can get you into back arcs.
Formation, formation, formation. It is a regular problem you need to sort out when they're heading in slightly different directions.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Feb 3, 2020 10:07:02 GMT
Got another game in using the Twins!
This time I was against Krueger2 in Bones. It was quite tricky and some pieces such as Golab felt a little redundant due to limited sprint options to reach. However brain damage was great! Shutting down Megalith and several wardens over the course of the game. In the end I won by assassination. I used Golab to kill Rhyas (who was under Krueger's feat), then slipstreamed Saeryn forward before flaring Krueger and shooting him with Craelix. Saeryn charged a woldwatcher, cast Marked for Death on Krueger and feated Rhyas back into melee to finish him. Had a back up option of not killing Rhyas, and moving the unit forwards to tag Kruger with either three Razor Winds or a Marked for Death and two Razor Winds. But it worked out anyway!
Still really enjoying playing the Twins, but am going to make another (hopefully final) change:
Ravens of War
Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight +24
-Blightbringer -32
-Golab -17
-Harrier -0(3)
-Harrier -0(3)
-Seraph -14
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion -0(6)
Craelix, Fang of Everblight -0(6)
Grotesque Assassin -4
Spell Martyr -1
Blighted Rotwings (Max) -12
Grotesque Banshees (Max) -13
Hellmouth -6
Cheers,
Dave
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Feb 3, 2020 17:00:49 GMT
I really like explaining the threat range of the Twins to my opponent. "Well, 14 inches on Rhyas alone. If I don't kill her. Then it'd be 19" from Saeryn, if she can charge something within 14". Or it's just 18" from Saeryn if she runs while Rhyas can charge anything within 14". Is it clear ?" My favorite is the running Saeryn version. You just start with the charge of Rhyas on something else, the guy watches calmly. Then you just run Saeryn through his front line into melee with his wardude, taking freestrikes or whatever while saying "she can transfer anyway" and the guy is just "WTF are you doing". Then you say "I feat with Rhyas" and he calls the judge |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Feb 8, 2020 7:38:44 GMT
Got another game in!
Used the list above with the rotwings instead of scouts and played against Feora3 in the Infernal theme. Won on assassination, but realized afterwards there was a far simpler scenario win available.
The list felt great! The infantry units both performed really well, I was finally getting work out of Marked Target (particularly on banshee sprays), the two heavies performed really well and Rhyas got consistent work done turn by turn!
Golab and the rotwings played together really nicely on one flank. Once the howlers were softened up the rotwings started making a mess of them, which then either healed up Golab or Golab removed tough from them. The veteran leader plus their in built DEF debuff worked really nicely together, and the no tough and RFP all came up. Golab survived one turn on five boxes, after which several solos and the remaining howlers near him were killed, letting him heal a heap before going off and doing yet more work (killing a champion of the order of the wall I believe). Given he'd already crippled Hand of Salvation plus assisted killing several howlers and solos through his passive abilities I feel he really earned his points this game.
The banshees, assassin and a harrier all eventually died on the other flank, but not before killing most of a knights exemplar unit and several flame bringers, holding up the flank and contesting well and putting ping damage around some solos and such. Again a solid group and I was happy to find my harrier positioning finally working out. RAT7 POW12 sprays are legit on a 10-man unit!
The blightbringer died fairly early, but still crippled a crusader and caused several issues before that. Was again solid. The seraph was slipstreaming everywhere again! Plus flaring things and sticking out chip damage for the finishers to go kill. The various ranged solos like the sorceress and Craelix put out consistent work across the board and the spell martyr lived the dream of being used to arc Marked for Death onto Feora! Wouldn't have been possible without it!
The Twins themselves were in an odd spot because basically all their upkeeps were useless. There were no spells targeting my troops and all the ranged attacks were sprays. This let Saeryn sling more spells and Rhyas was able to get in and get work done on stuff every turn. Still need to work on positioning overall though.
So yeah, the list feels great now! I need to work on my placement to get the most out of various pieces, but I think it's all starting to come together. So now I need to fine tune my Abby1 list.
Thanks for all the comments and help everyone! Really happy with where the list has ended up.
Cheers,
Dave
P.S. Can Golab RFP models if he's at full health?
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Feb 8, 2020 13:22:05 GMT
Glad you like them. I honestly mostly play the twins nowadays. Some other warlocks are fun, but only they can remind me of the glorious days of our mk2 tricks. You can build a lot of different lists with them and have fun. From beast heavy with double throne to speedy infantry spam in ravens. Lots of game space to explore. Which I guess is due to the fact they don't really support anything really well, and they do their (complicated) stuff regardless of what you put beside them. Their support spells work on/for anything in the faction. Another warlock like them is Lylyth1 in this regard, except it's the un-complicated, straightforward gameplay version. I often pair the two, and play one or the other depending on my exhaustion level |
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Post by copperflame on Feb 10, 2020 19:34:40 GMT
I love the twins! I'm glad you are taking a shine to them. I need to copy your list though - I haven't tried them with Rotwings yet!
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 11, 2020 8:53:09 GMT
Good read 😊
Quick question. Do the vultures outperform grotesques in a meaningful way? The main difference to me is stealth vs repo. Is that the choice or is there more to consider?
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So extra 2 inches can make a big difference for the positioning of 6/7 focus wardudes...