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Post by emb on Dec 31, 2019 19:54:57 GMT
Give him Fury instead of Blood Fury.*
*Hey, the footnote is the meat of the post! Is it really a nerf? Dude has Warpath...for beasts. Dude's feat really wants bought attacks, large bases, and reach?...beasts! Dude wants things to murder the hell out of whatever his stuff gets in contact with?...Is +3 really that much worse than +1D6 for warrior models? Is it still worse when you consider the DEF penalty difference? I don't know...but I do know that Fury can go onto a unit or a Warbeast while Blood Fury can only go onto a unit.
**I'll also settle for the word "warrior" being removed from "Blood Fury". C'moooooooon. Let me run an eMadrak beast brick without throwing his signature spell into the garbage.
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Post by anoddman on Dec 31, 2019 20:42:17 GMT
Ehhhh...
In my experience, Fury 5 Madrak wants a handful of beasts, not a beast brick. Giving Warpath to a 3-4 model battlegroup is pretty solid while the infantry in the list are getting turned into weaponmasters. Maybe like Mauler, Ice Troll, Basher, Basher as a battlegroup. I'd play that with SotN infantry for sure.
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Post by emb on Jan 1, 2020 1:49:35 GMT
On a caster that can just about go to zero camp every turn? I can hold at least four heavies in a hand.
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Post by moridamn on Jan 2, 2020 15:23:29 GMT
I mean, what do you consider to be a beast brick? You can run 4 heavies and still have some units with Madrak2. In PoD, you could bring a bomber, 2 maulers, and a EBDT and still find room for 3 units of Runeshapers and a max stone with UA. I do think Blood Fury is a bit weak compared to other similar spells, but I don't think it's been that big of a deal for me.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 2, 2020 16:00:18 GMT
I think you're skipping over a few things here.
Extra dice has more spike potential so is actually better when you can put it on units.
The fact that Fury is an upkeep and Blood Fury is not, also has some implications. It means that some themes allow you to have Fury up for free and cycle it for 1-3 Fury (depending on Runebearer and SotN bonus) rather than having to spend 3-4 to have it up on 2 targets. Note also that Blood Fury could theoretically be up on more than 2 targets, and that the Runebearer can cast it, whereas Fury would be hard limited to 2 and would force you to cycle the upkeep.
I am wrong, please disregard.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206 
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Post by skurkious on Jan 2, 2020 16:57:29 GMT
I think you're skipping over a few things here. Extra dice has more spike potential so is actually better when you can put it on units. The fact that Fury is an upkeep and Blood Fury is not, also has some implications. It means that some themes allow you to have Fury up for free and cycle it for 1-3 Fury (depending on Runebearer and SotN bonus) rather than having to spend 3-4 to have it up on 2 targets. Note also that Blood Fury could theoretically be up on more than 2 targets, and that the Runebearer can cast it, whereas Fury would be hard limited to 2 and would force you to cycle the upkeep. Blood fury is also an upkeep. |
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Post by moridamn on Jan 2, 2020 17:25:32 GMT
Just to clarify, when I said it was a bit weak, I mean in terms of versatility. It's still a very potent spell, especially on large units like fennblades.
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Post by emb on Jan 2, 2020 23:52:36 GMT
To answer multiple posts: beast brick = 4 heavies plus support (ie axer and maybe bouncer, although as mentioned, Madrak needs a bouncer less than most other casters).
Blood Fury is good, I just don't think it's worth the negatives compared to straight Fury. It's not going to stop me from playing a beast brick with eMadrak, but man, I'd really like to run a Fury'd, Raged/Primal'd, Berserk, Overtake, Brawler.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jan 3, 2020 0:01:22 GMT
Give him Fury instead of Blood Fury.* *Hey, the footnote is the meat of the post! Is it really a nerf? Dude has Warpath...for beasts. Dude's feat really wants bought attacks, large bases, and reach?...beasts! Dude wants things to murder the hell out of whatever his stuff gets in contact with?...Is +3 really that much worse than +1D6 for warrior models? Is it still worse when you consider the DEF penalty difference? I don't know...but I do know that Fury can go onto a unit or a Warbeast while Blood Fury can only go onto a unit. **I'll also settle for the word "warrior" being removed from "Blood Fury". C'moooooooon. Let me run an eMadrak beast brick without throwing his signature spell into the garbage. The original concern was likely the combination of Rage and Fury for a trivial +6 damage swing on any warbeast as long as you brought a Mauler or M. King. Looking at Rask in Minions now, who does the same, it is indeed pretty extreme, but not broken (in the context of Minions). |
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 3, 2020 16:02:27 GMT
The real benefit of Fury (the spell) on a troll warlock is just that it means we can actually afford to use Maulers to y'know... Maul stuff, instead of having to hold them back as a support beast because their Animus is so valuable to our gameplay.
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Post by josephkerr on Jan 3, 2020 16:54:04 GMT
The real benefit of Fury (the spell) on a troll warlock is just that it means we can actually afford to use Maulers to y'know... Maul stuff, instead of having to hold them back as a support beast because their Animus is so valuable to our gameplay. In most games trying to get work out of 4+ beasts in the same turn often leaves ur expensive stuff trying to kill some inefficient things only to get wiped in return. Unless you are some arkadius style max threat list, its almost always better to portion out ur heavies and try to end with something capable of closing the game. Saying that you need to designate the Mauler as your last beast doesnt seem like a negative when its so capable and you most often wanna end with something your warlock can buff instead of asking your warlock to get the work done themselves. |
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 3, 2020 17:26:29 GMT
The real benefit of Fury (the spell) on a troll warlock is just that it means we can actually afford to use Maulers to y'know... Maul stuff, instead of having to hold them back as a support beast because their Animus is so valuable to our gameplay. In most games trying to get work out of 4+ beasts in the same turn often leaves ur expensive stuff trying to kill some inefficient things only to get wiped in return. Unless you are some arkadius style max threat list, its almost always better to portion out ur heavies and try to end with something capable of closing the game. Saying that you need to designate the Mauler as your last beast doesnt seem like a negative when its so capable and you most often wanna end with something your warlock can buff instead of asking your warlock to get the work done themselves. But the mauler isn't the beast I'd want to hold back in such a situation, except for the necessity of its Animus. The mauler should be one of your first picks to send in given it's melee only, has high number of initials (for trolls), a high FURY stat, and is just tough enough with enough POW to be threatening if it lives that it forces your opponent to target the mauler for removal. Holding the mauler back is an option, but in a situation where I had a second damage buff to replace Rage with after the mauler croaks, I can instead hold back beasts that will be useful for longer periods of time or that can put in work even while the mauler is busy wrecking face. As an example, I could send in the mauler with Fury and Rush on it, while holding back the Axer and a bomber. With that I could get an extra turn of shooting out of the bomber while my opponent is forced to deal with the mauler. Then, if the mauler survives the counterattack, I can let it frenzy (if needed) and if it dies I can send in the bomber or Axer with Fury (and rush) on them without having to worry about a drop off in their effectiveness after losing access to the mauler's animus. |
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Post by josephkerr on Jan 3, 2020 20:11:18 GMT
In most games trying to get work out of 4+ beasts in the same turn often leaves ur expensive stuff trying to kill some inefficient things only to get wiped in return. Unless you are some arkadius style max threat list, its almost always better to portion out ur heavies and try to end with something capable of closing the game. Saying that you need to designate the Mauler as your last beast doesnt seem like a negative when its so capable and you most often wanna end with something your warlock can buff instead of asking your warlock to get the work done themselves. But the mauler isn't the beast I'd want to hold back in such a situation, except for the necessity of its Animus. The mauler should be one of your first picks to send in given it's melee only, has high number of initials (for trolls), a high FURY stat, and is just tough enough with enough POW to be threatening if it lives that it forces your opponent to target the mauler for removal. Holding the mauler back is an option, but in a situation where I had a second damage buff to replace Rage with after the mauler croaks, I can instead hold back beasts that will be useful for longer periods of time or that can put in work even while the mauler is busy wrecking face. As an example, I could send in the mauler with Fury and Rush on it, while holding back the Axer and a bomber. With that I could get an extra turn of shooting out of the bomber while my opponent is forced to deal with the mauler. Then, if the mauler survives the counterattack, I can let it frenzy (if needed) and if it dies I can send in the bomber or Axer with Fury (and rush) on them without having to worry about a drop off in their effectiveness after losing access to the mauler's animus. I guess I see it being fine with an extra Mauler, or EBT, or even a Blitzer or lights or the character heavies. Outside the Bomber and Dozer and Smigg, what other heavies do you think the mauler synergizes poorly with? I think it may just synergize poorly with the ranged beasts, and thats ok. In addition, if your battlegroup is three beasts, you are probably using units to avoid losing on scenario, and you probably dont need to jam your beasts right away, in which case getting ranged value out of your bomber is less dependent on your beasts. Starting your beast chain with the bomber after its shot for a round is still good value out of the model. i guess, is it as optimal as it could be? No, but its not the thing thats holding back trolls. Being expensive per model and having to spend maybe 10% of your army on the krielstone is whats wrong with trolls. |
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