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Post by michael on Dec 31, 2019 3:27:26 GMT
Being able to use models in a lot of different lists was something the game lost and it sucks.
My old Skorne Nihilators could be dropped into every list i made. they took on different characteristics with each caster. With mordikaar they were really fun as a revive threat. With xerxis, they had damage buffing from his feat. With zaal1 they were fun to last stand and they helped fuel his feat.
Now? if you buy say, a unit of immortals that unit is just stuck in exalted and only plays with exalted friendly casters. It is so unfriendly to new players and to old players alike due to that extra $$$ expense i think anything that allows more playability of staples is something wmh needs to address. It's a terrible experience to be told you need to go buy more stuff because all your Masters of War infantry are not useful in Exalted meanwhile on the other side of the store the GW players can keep using their space marine troops as a core and fleshing out their lists with more exotic options, or the star wars legion players can keep using their stormtroopers as they flesh out their armies
You can't have it both ways, folks. Either everything is wide open and people complain about how terrible this game is because the model range is so bloated and balance sucks because there are too many interactions, or theme forces are tightly regimented and people complain about how restrictive theme forces are because they can't mix and match everything. Pick a complaint and stick with it.
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Post by challenger on Dec 31, 2019 5:44:03 GMT
Being able to use models in a lot of different lists was something the game lost and it sucks.
My old Skorne Nihilators could be dropped into every list i made. they took on different characteristics with each caster. With mordikaar they were really fun as a revive threat. With xerxis, they had damage buffing from his feat. With zaal1 they were fun to last stand and they helped fuel his feat.
Now? if you buy say, a unit of immortals that unit is just stuck in exalted and only plays with exalted friendly casters. It is so unfriendly to new players and to old players alike due to that extra $$$ expense i think anything that allows more playability of staples is something wmh needs to address. It's a terrible experience to be told you need to go buy more stuff because all your Masters of War infantry are not useful in Exalted meanwhile on the other side of the store the GW players can keep using their space marine troops as a core and fleshing out their lists with more exotic options, or the star wars legion players can keep using their stormtroopers as they flesh out their armies
You can't have it both ways, folks. Either everything is wide open and people complain about how terrible this game is because the model range is so bloated and balance sucks because there are too many interactions, or theme forces are tightly regimented and people complain about how restrictive theme forces are because they can't mix and match everything. Pick a complaint and stick with it. I've never, ever said the game's pre-theme balance problems were the results of everything being able to be mixed and matched. Nor have i ever said that Thememachine improved that aspect of the game.
i have been against Thememachine from the start consistently and have been unhappy with what it did to list building and to the game.
The model bloat (which does exist, as it exists in all long lived miniature games that have to keep making more releases) is an entirely different issue, as is the balance issues. Issues that largely go unaddressed as PP pumped out a mini faction per year and kept power creeping each CID.
All the while you ignore the very real consequence of regimenting themes so tightly that new players have a much higher $ burden to buy into the game, resulting in them just not bothering or playing a cheaper competitor.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 31, 2019 6:58:20 GMT
Thememachine doesn't push much more of a higher dollar buy in for a new player, so long as they are aware of it when they are starting to collect. The higher dollar buy in only comes in with the "free" models. Of course, if people are insisting on only high-point games, that doesn't help either.
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Post by michael on Dec 31, 2019 13:39:42 GMT
You can't have it both ways, folks. Either everything is wide open and people complain about how terrible this game is because the model range is so bloated and balance sucks because there are too many interactions, or theme forces are tightly regimented and people complain about how restrictive theme forces are because they can't mix and match everything. Pick a complaint and stick with it. I've never, ever said the game's pre-theme balance problems were the results of everything being able to be mixed and matched. Nor have i ever said that Thememachine improved that aspect of the game.
i have been against Thememachine from the start consistently and have been unhappy with what it did to list building and to the game.
The model bloat (which does exist, as it exists in all long lived miniature games that have to keep making more releases) is an entirely different issue, as is the balance issues. Issues that largely go unaddressed as PP pumped out a mini faction per year and kept power creeping each CID.
All the while you ignore the very real consequence of regimenting themes so tightly that new players have a much higher $ burden to buy into the game, resulting in them just not bothering or playing a cheaper competitor.
Wasn’t targeting you specifically, just the generic “you”. I don’t see how you disentangle balance and themes and model range bloat. Balancing everything all at once is hard because there are so many interactions, and there are always going to be more models and interactions because unfortunately people have to spend money to live, and therefore Privateer has to sell things to us. But you are gonna have to back up your “themes cost more than themeless” assertion with some facts.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Dec 31, 2019 13:48:20 GMT
I've never, ever said the game's pre-theme balance problems were the results of everything being able to be mixed and matched. Nor have i ever said that Thememachine improved that aspect of the game.
i have been against Thememachine from the start consistently and have been unhappy with what it did to list building and to the game.
The model bloat (which does exist, as it exists in all long lived miniature games that have to keep making more releases) is an entirely different issue, as is the balance issues. Issues that largely go unaddressed as PP pumped out a mini faction per year and kept power creeping each CID.
All the while you ignore the very real consequence of regimenting themes so tightly that new players have a much higher $ burden to buy into the game, resulting in them just not bothering or playing a cheaper competitor.
Wasn’t targeting you specifically, just the generic “you”. I don’t see how you disentangle balance and themes and model range bloat. Balancing everything all at once is hard because there are so many interactions, and there are always going to be more models and interactions because unfortunately people have to spend money to live, and therefore Privateer has to sell things to us. But you are gonna have to back up your “themes cost more than themeless” assertion with some facts. A lot cheaper if you can just use whatever you got second hand. Also, requisitions.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 31, 2019 16:22:19 GMT
But you are gonna have to back up your “themes cost more than themeless” assertion with some facts. If you have an army for one theme and fancy a change/variety within your preferred facton you can't just add your desired dream unit to what you already have.
It's more difficult to take advantage of second-hand offers as you have to look for very specific, theme-kosher things.
That's what killed WM&H for most of my friends who played before themepocalypse - the cost of adjusting their varied collections so they can have playable armies was too much for them.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 31, 2019 16:27:52 GMT
I appreciate that distributors have a glut of games to choose from, and that will have an impact on the amount of PP stock they are willing to carry. On the flip-side though, if a game is in demand, why would distributors not carry it? If I can order stock I know I will shift easily, why wouldn't I buy it?
The problem is what comes first, the chicken or the egg? PP need increased demand to get distributors to stock their stuff again, but they can only increase demand by getting new players, which requires them to be able to buy stuff.
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Post by michael on Dec 31, 2019 17:38:51 GMT
I appreciate that distributors have a glut of games to choose from, and that will have an impact on the amount of PP stock they are willing to carry. On the flip-side though, if a game is in demand, why would distributors not carry it? If I can order stock I know I will shift easily, why wouldn't I buy it? The problem is what comes first, the chicken or the egg? PP need increased demand to get distributors to stock their stuff again, but they can only increase demand by getting new players, which requires them to be able to buy stuff. Certain distributors are not willing to restock even when there IS demand. I think Alliance has been sensible...maybe it was ACD? (Honestly I forget who it was... Keeping up with this stuff is literally NOT my day job. ) Anecdotal point being: I know several stores that consistently (as in, for 12-18 months) got shorted or never had WM preorders delivered on a consistent basis, with the lame excuse always being “out of stock at the manufacturer”, which was a lie because product WAS shipping just fine from both Privateer direct and other distributors.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 31, 2019 17:50:20 GMT
I appreciate that distributors have a glut of games to choose from, and that will have an impact on the amount of PP stock they are willing to carry. On the flip-side though, if a game is in demand, why would distributors not carry it? If I can order stock I know I will shift easily, why wouldn't I buy it? The problem is what comes first, the chicken or the egg? PP need increased demand to get distributors to stock their stuff again, but they can only increase demand by getting new players, which requires them to be able to buy stuff.
And distributors often only get what the stores want to order, and trend from there. One of the big stores in my meta has good ties with PP, having played Warhammer with them back in the day, so he has decent stock. However, the other big store in our area has pushed all PP product to an end cap because so few people are playing (game night is usually about 3-4 people) and no one is really buying.
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