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Post by challenger on Dec 30, 2019 5:01:06 GMT
All prices sourced from today (30/12/2019) prices on Miniature market
Star Wars Legion Core Set: Stormtroopers $20 Stormtroopers $20 Speeder bikes - $20 Vader - $10.39 Luke - $10.39
Rebel troopers - $20 Rebel Troopers - $20 AT-RT - $20 Dice set - $12.79 Measurement tools and rulers - $12.79
Barricade set - $12 Total cost sourced separately - $178USD Cost of a core set - $71.99 USD Discount - $106.01. you pay 40% the value of the box.
After that you have - two half sized armies, a rulebook, terrain to play with, dice to play with, measurement tools. If a new player asks "what do i need to buy to play this game?" you can point to that with no regrets.
Warmachine theme box (Slaughter Fleet raiders): Gerlak - $12.79 Bloodgorgers $76.49 Ironmongers - $27.19 Jussika - $15.29 dirge seers - $21.29 Misery cage - $16.99 Total cost sourced separately - $170.74 Cost of the theme box - $148.79 Discount - $22.
Of course, then you have to make the new player go buy the Battlegroup starter set for $34! Giving them a total cost of $ 182.79 to have a 35pt army with barely any tokens, 4 dice, a useless battle map and no terrain
Lets do another - the most recent addition to the game the Infernals army box. maybe the new player wants to play the latest and greatest?
Zaateroth - $22.50 Desolator - $33.99 Lamenter - $21.29 Shrieker - $11.89 Umbral guardian - $16.99 Orin midwinter - $13.59 Griever swarm - $38.29 Cultists - $42.49 Total cost sourced separately - $201.03
Cost of army box - $169.99
Discount - $30
a mere 15% saving, and leaves the new player with no dice, no terrain, no measurement tools, no tokens.
I've said it before, and i'll say it again. if you want to attract new players you need to offer good starter sets that are as simple and inclusive as possible into a single box. Warmachine requires multiple boxes, lots of different purchases and honestly its starter sets (esp. the battleboxes) aren't even competitive
Of course, Warmachine being perhaps the most expensive miniatures game (Single 2,000 point 40k lists are way cheaper than warmachine list pairs!) makes this even worse. For the cost of slaughter fleet raiders and the battlebox, a star wars legion player can pay around $20 more for two core sets and have two full sized armies, ample dice, terrain, tokens and measurement widgets.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 30, 2019 6:11:52 GMT
WMH is not designed from a model-building standpoint to match 40K numbers, so massive plastic sprues have yet to be implemented across the board. While Legion is not currently set up to really play at 40K model numbers, with their sku list being low in every faction, but building it up to match 40K is possible in the future.
Transitioning that many skus from one mold to another is a challenge, especially when the building medium changes so drastically. White metal molds are considerably different from plastic molds, especially if you want to maintain detail (and moving doesn't help, either). FFG is starting from the plastic sprue stand point instead of white metal, so they do not have to deal with a transition. I think this right here, along with such a vast difference in sku setup is the main reason why.
There is also organizational list building in Legion which really doesn't exist in WMH. WMH only requires the 'Caster/'Lock/'Master, but everything else is up to the player to decide how to field it. There are no Troops/Corps to fill out the core of your list with limited numbers of Elites/Operatives, Fast Attack/Special Forces, Heavy Support/Heavy units to fill out your list with.
To put it another way, Stormtroopers, Rebel Troopers, Clone Troopers, and B1 Battle Droids are ubiquitous to their armies and will fit in most builds. Aside from the 'Jacks, can you name one combat unit that is ubiquitous in any of the (non-limited) armies of WarmaHordes? The only units I know of are support units like Beast Handlers and the Choir. I can't take Steelheads in every Mercenary Theme (though, they are the most common unit for my Mercs), but Stormtroopers are always available.
TL;DR Warmachine is not set up in either logistics or list building to make things easy to have an "out of the box" army easy to purchase and run with.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 30, 2019 7:58:38 GMT
... TL;DR Warmachine is not set up in either logistics or list building to make things easy to have an "out of the box" army easy to purchase and run with. The list building issue can be solved.
A starter box doesn't have to have a complete army, or even models that are used in all lists. There are a few things a starter box list needs:
(1) It does need to provide a good introduction to the game with most of the models being usable frequently. In one sense WM/H has an advantage there as most jacks/beasts are usable in most themes, so any jacks/beasts included in the starter box are likely to be worth reusing.
Something like 25 point lists with at least one unit and solo per side could work, especially if the rest is made up of jacks or beasts. Themes can be accommodated by using units/solos which are either available in multiple themes and/or which are a solid pick in a flexible theme.
For example, a Khador 25 point list could include be built around the Armored Korps theme with a unit of MoW shocktroopers (good in almost every list in that theme) and a Forgeseer solo (used in theme, also usable in Jaws of the Wolf and Wolves of Winter themes). Add two or three jacks to taste.
Other factions might be trickier, but that kind of approach can make a starter box decent value for money, at least if purchasers can split the contents.
(2) Making sure the starter box actually provides a good game. If it's imbalanced towards one side or another, that risks discouraging new players. That can be problematic for WM/H as at lower point levels there is a risk of rock/paper/scissors type play, with hard counters for some abilities. That has to be avoided in a starter box. So once one set of models has been determined, the other set needs to be considered in light of that. If Khador MoW were one side of the box, the other side probably needs to include some weapon masters for example - models which can do significant damage to high-ARM/boxes models, at least if they get into melee. Something like Exemplar Knights or Bane Thralls (neither of which are bad choices in their respective themes).
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Dec 30, 2019 10:45:04 GMT
... TL;DR Warmachine is not set up in either logistics or list building to make things easy to have an "out of the box" army easy to purchase and run with. The list building issue can be solved.
A starter box doesn't have to have a complete army, or even models that are used in all lists. There are a few things a starter box list needs:
(1) It does need to provide a good introduction to the game with most of the models being usable frequently. In one sense WM/H has an advantage there as most jacks/beasts are usable in most themes, so any jacks/beasts included in the starter box are likely to be worth reusing.
Something like 25 point lists with at least one unit and solo per side could work, especially if the rest is made up of jacks or beasts. Themes can be accommodated by using units/solos which are either available in multiple themes and/or which are a solid pick in a flexible theme.
For example, a Khador 25 point list could include be built around the Armored Korps theme with a unit of MoW shocktroopers (good in almost every list in that theme) and a Forgeseer solo (used in theme, also usable in Jaws of the Wolf and Wolves of Winter themes). Add two or three jacks to taste.
Other factions might be trickier, but that kind of approach can make a starter box decent value for money, at least if purchasers can split the contents.
(2) Making sure the starter box actually provides a good game. If it's imbalanced towards one side or another, that risks discouraging new players. That can be problematic for WM/H as at lower point levels there is a risk of rock/paper/scissors type play, with hard counters for some abilities. That has to be avoided in a starter box. So once one set of models has been determined, the other set needs to be considered in light of that. If Khador MoW were one side of the box, the other side probably needs to include some weapon masters for example - models which can do significant damage to high-ARM/boxes models, at least if they get into melee. Something like Exemplar Knights or Bane Thralls (neither of which are bad choices in their respective themes).
In terms of content, I think the 2017 ret box wasn't awful, but traditionally you wouldn't put a minifaction in the same box as a core faction. I also think WMH could become much accessible if they made better starter sets. In the local community GW consistently sell like hot cakes. Never played the warmachine set, but I think the Hordes 2 player set is a textbook example of how not to build a starter set.
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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 30, 2019 10:58:36 GMT
i do think we need better army boxes as starter kits.
as a protectorate player i can pretty much say that any starting kit should have. warcaster 2 heavies (crusaders or castigators) a devout heirophant choir followed by theme force army unit + solo.
maybe add in an actual requisition option (aka 2 vassals)
if a new player interest in playing protectorate saw this then they would have a solid deal imho.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 30, 2019 11:46:37 GMT
"why isn't this relatively obscure property competing on the level of something based on starwars?!"
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Post by falkman on Dec 30, 2019 12:03:59 GMT
"why isn't this relatively obscure property competing on the level of something based on starwars?!" Since it was doing just that a few years ago it’s a valid question.
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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 30, 2019 13:45:24 GMT
"why isn't this relatively obscure property competing on the level of something based on starwars?!" Since it was doing just that a few years ago it’s a valid question. better question would be. "how did one of the TOP 5 games let itself drop into said obscurity". i mean starwars is Firetrucking starwars...there is a massive hype about that franchise. i fully expected that to be in the top 5 regardless. But its not like pp couldn't have done anything about them beeing knocked off into obscurity.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 30, 2019 16:12:37 GMT
Part of the problem is that Warmachine and Hordes are considered two separate games on that list. I remember a discussion in 2017, when Warmachine was 3rd, it would have been second, or possibly first that year. In 2016, Warmachine was 3rd and Hordes took 5th. They both had strong showings in prior years as separate entries.
Also troubling, and slightly concerning, is the fact that even alone, Warmachine made it to third (twice) and has completely fallen off the top 5. Maybe that isn't all that troubling, as the new kids on the block are part of one of the biggest properties owned by a giga-corporation that can throw PP's entire yearly profits into a day's worth of advertising.
There's a few reasons for PP to drop off, three that come to mind:
1- The game is losing popularity and is shrinking 2- The other games are growing faster 3- The game is stagnant and neither growing or shrinking
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 30, 2019 18:39:40 GMT
... TL;DR Warmachine is not set up in either logistics or list building to make things easy to have an "out of the box" army easy to purchase and run with. The list building issue can be solved.
A starter box doesn't have to have a complete army, or even models that are used in all lists. There are a few things a starter box list needs:
(1) It does need to provide a good introduction to the game with most of the models being usable frequently. In one sense WM/H has an advantage there as most jacks/beasts are usable in most themes, so any jacks/beasts included in the starter box are likely to be worth reusing.
Something like 25 point lists with at least one unit and solo per side could work, especially if the rest is made up of jacks or beasts. Themes can be accommodated by using units/solos which are either available in multiple themes and/or which are a solid pick in a flexible theme.
For example, a Khador 25 point list could include be built around the Armored Korps theme with a unit of MoW shocktroopers (good in almost every list in that theme) and a Forgeseer solo (used in theme, also usable in Jaws of the Wolf and Wolves of Winter themes). Add two or three jacks to taste.
Other factions might be trickier, but that kind of approach can make a starter box decent value for money, at least if purchasers can split the contents.
(2) Making sure the starter box actually provides a good game. If it's imbalanced towards one side or another, that risks discouraging new players. That can be problematic for WM/H as at lower point levels there is a risk of rock/paper/scissors type play, with hard counters for some abilities. That has to be avoided in a starter box. So once one set of models has been determined, the other set needs to be considered in light of that. If Khador MoW were one side of the box, the other side probably needs to include some weapon masters for example - models which can do significant damage to high-ARM/boxes models, at least if they get into melee. Something like Exemplar Knights or Bane Thralls (neither of which are bad choices in their respective themes).
I once brought up the question of how people would organize their armies if they had a setup like Troops, Elites, etc. This was poopoo'd, if not outright ignored, because of how the Theme situation was at the time and not wanting to get get tied up with 40K. Well, SWLegion is doing it, and they are building up. This list building system does have its advantages over WMH precisely for this reason.
Would any of you consider it a good thing if certain combat units were the "Troops/Corps" of your army and available in every Theme? We're talking units like Steelhead Halberdiers, Winter Guard, Praetorian Karax, basically most of the high FA units of your army.
Would any of you consider it a good thing if list building were altered such that taking 1-2 of those units were both required and extremely beneficial (such as only these units could hold these zones)?
These are questions that would start justify the expense to start to sell them on the sprue.
Now, many of these would be good questions in setting up Neo-Mechanika and setting up Mk 4 to be a more model-intensive game like 40K is.
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Post by shiza on Dec 30, 2019 19:38:39 GMT
cmon produces very cheap starters, but they are not represented in this list. so problem is more complicated.. maybe their decision to spray over few projects are good in long perspective, but catastrophic in short. maybe another thing not very friendly - very often change the rules by the CID. and i am still sure that mk3 release was very painful, and many fans just cannot forgive this to company.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 30, 2019 22:56:32 GMT
maybe their decision to spray over few projects are good in long perspective, but catastrophic in short. What do you mean by "spray over few projects"?
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Post by michael on Dec 30, 2019 23:08:50 GMT
ICV2 is also, so far as I know, based on industry self-reported metrics. The ridiculous deluge of tabletop product in the last three or four years — something like 5 new board games release each day right now — has caused issues with standard distribution channels. There was even an Insider about this a few months ago, though this trend started in 2016 or so, honestly.
So distributors order one sell-through of new PP stock, a few big-name releases dominate the charts because it turns out you can bank on a household name like Star Wars, some distributors have become SIGNIFICANTLY more reliable about stocking PP than others in the last couple years, the huge Asmodee consolidation, a big surge in MonPoc and Riot Quest popularity, etc., and we end up with the charts where they are.
I would trust the pre-2017 data more than I would the current data, for those reasons.
And, Warmachine probably has entered a period of contraction because of all the various new shinies. Chill out and keep playing the game.
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Post by challenger on Dec 31, 2019 1:48:17 GMT
The list building issue can be solved.
A starter box doesn't have to have a complete army, or even models that are used in all lists. There are a few things a starter box list needs:
(1) It does need to provide a good introduction to the game with most of the models being usable frequently. In one sense WM/H has an advantage there as most jacks/beasts are usable in most themes, so any jacks/beasts included in the starter box are likely to be worth reusing.
Something like 25 point lists with at least one unit and solo per side could work, especially if the rest is made up of jacks or beasts. Themes can be accommodated by using units/solos which are either available in multiple themes and/or which are a solid pick in a flexible theme.
For example, a Khador 25 point list could include be built around the Armored Korps theme with a unit of MoW shocktroopers (good in almost every list in that theme) and a Forgeseer solo (used in theme, also usable in Jaws of the Wolf and Wolves of Winter themes). Add two or three jacks to taste.
Other factions might be trickier, but that kind of approach can make a starter box decent value for money, at least if purchasers can split the contents.
(2) Making sure the starter box actually provides a good game. If it's imbalanced towards one side or another, that risks discouraging new players. That can be problematic for WM/H as at lower point levels there is a risk of rock/paper/scissors type play, with hard counters for some abilities. That has to be avoided in a starter box. So once one set of models has been determined, the other set needs to be considered in light of that. If Khador MoW were one side of the box, the other side probably needs to include some weapon masters for example - models which can do significant damage to high-ARM/boxes models, at least if they get into melee. Something like Exemplar Knights or Bane Thralls (neither of which are bad choices in their respective themes).
I once brought up the question of how people would organize their armies if they had a setup like Troops, Elites, etc. This was poopoo'd, if not outright ignored, because of how the Theme situation was at the time and not wanting to get get tied up with 40K. Well, SWLegion is doing it, and they are building up. This list building system does have its advantages over WMH precisely for this reason.
Would any of you consider it a good thing if certain combat units were the "Troops/Corps" of your army and available in every Theme? We're talking units like Steelhead Halberdiers, Winter Guard, Praetorian Karax, basically most of the high FA units of your army.
Would any of you consider it a good thing if list building were altered such that taking 1-2 of those units were both required and extremely beneficial (such as only these units could hold these zones)?
These are questions that would start justify the expense to start to sell them on the sprue.
Now, many of these would be good questions in setting up Neo-Mechanika and setting up Mk 4 to be a more model-intensive game like 40K is.
Being able to use models in a lot of different lists was something the game lost and it sucks.
My old Skorne Nihilators could be dropped into every list i made. they took on different characteristics with each caster. With mordikaar they were really fun as a revive threat. With xerxis, they had damage buffing from his feat. With zaal1 they were fun to last stand and they helped fuel his feat.
Now? if you buy say, a unit of immortals that unit is just stuck in exalted and only plays with exalted friendly casters. It is so unfriendly to new players and to old players alike due to that extra $$$ expense
i think anything that allows more playability of staples is something wmh needs to address. It's a terrible experience to be told you need to go buy more stuff because all your Masters of War infantry are not useful in Exalted meanwhile on the other side of the store the GW players can keep using their space marine troops as a core and fleshing out their lists with more exotic options, or the star wars legion players can keep using their stormtroopers as they flesh out their armies
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 31, 2019 2:46:17 GMT
Heh, could you imagine if WMH was organized like a standard list of Core, Support, Elite, and such determining FA, with the Themes just rearranging who goes where?
For example, in a non-Themed army, Preatorian Swordsmen and Karax would be the Core with Nihilators and Bloddrunners as Elite, but when you go to Disciples of Agony, they switch.
Of course, before that happens, it may be wiser to get the whole line on sprue in order to compete price-wise.
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