snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Nov 29, 2019 9:46:12 GMT
The Hermit is freaking immortal in this list! The only suffers a single damage, then both archon can keep him alive and if anything dies the Hermit can be healed for D3 (archon is friendly not friendly faction). I think the list is really great. Maybe I would replace a unit of runeshapers with shamans but this really makes me want to buy runeshapers Still a bit new (well, coming back kinda new, but still). Which shamans were you referring to? This list is awesome, and definitely convinced me to check out the Dhunian Archons again, misread/underestimated them. I like the Boker/Shamblers, though I do agree that I kinda wish there were models that were a bit more thematic. Conversions are harder in Warmachine, needing to be mostly PP materials and recognizable... I assume something like Trollblood Warriors or Fennblades wouldn't be as good due to cost and a lack of recursion? I do get worried about digging into so many duplicates of a unit. That many Runeshapers are awesome (though big duplicated in poses) but certainly an expensive niche list, doubt I'd ever use that many Runeshapers with any consistency. Could do some solid conversion work, which could be fun none-the-less... I mean the Northkin Shamans, basically a 4 point solo (so you get 2 instead of 3 RS). Magic 6 can do a magic spray pow 12 or do a cloud and repo 5" afterwards or they can reduce Def of enemies within 2" by 2. I think they are totally worth it instead of a fifth unit of RS and they get similar synergy from Hermit and archon!
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Post by anoddman on Nov 29, 2019 15:37:52 GMT
If you want some diversity and an overall reduction in the Runeshapers you need to buy, I think you could reasonably do a head and arm swap between Runeshapers and Fennblades to create some additional units. Thanks to the 2-player battlebox, it's easy to find an extra unit of Fennblades if you don't have one.
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Post by trollbloodironmonger on Nov 29, 2019 23:15:30 GMT
Still a bit new (well, coming back kinda new, but still). Which shamans were you referring to? This list is awesome, and definitely convinced me to check out the Dhunian Archons again, misread/underestimated them. I like the Boker/Shamblers, though I do agree that I kinda wish there were models that were a bit more thematic. Conversions are harder in Warmachine, needing to be mostly PP materials and recognizable... I assume something like Trollblood Warriors or Fennblades wouldn't be as good due to cost and a lack of recursion? I do get worried about digging into so many duplicates of a unit. That many Runeshapers are awesome (though big duplicated in poses) but certainly an expensive niche list, doubt I'd ever use that many Runeshapers with any consistency. Could do some solid conversion work, which could be fun none-the-less... I mean the Northkin Shamans, basically a 4 point solo (so you get 2 instead of 3 RS). Magic 6 can do a magic spray pow 12 or do a cloud and repo 5" afterwards or they can reduce Def of enemies within 2" by 2. I think they are totally worth it instead of a fifth unit of RS and they get similar synergy from Hermit and archon! Makes sense! Noted. I do love the Northkin model, so that seems like a fun choice for a lot of lists. Thanks! Will see if I can throw together some proxies and try out the idea. Should be a fun experiment, at the very least.
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Post by Kevin on Nov 30, 2019 13:25:29 GMT
If you want some diversity and an overall reduction in the Runeshapers you need to buy, I think you could reasonably do a head and arm swap between Runeshapers and Fennblades to create some additional units. Thanks to the 2-player battlebox, it's easy to find an extra unit of Fennblades if you don't have one. Kinda not that theme force;)
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Nov 30, 2019 14:25:22 GMT
If you want some diversity and an overall reduction in the Runeshapers you need to buy, I think you could reasonably do a head and arm swap between Runeshapers and Fennblades to create some additional units. Thanks to the 2-player battlebox, it's easy to find an extra unit of Fennblades if you don't have one. Kinda not that theme force;) He probably meant to build a bunch of runeshapers out of Fennblade parts. Keep in mind you'd need to do a lot of hacking, sawing and stuffing.
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Post by Kevin on Nov 30, 2019 14:32:07 GMT
My bad, didnt pay enought attention
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Post by emb on Nov 30, 2019 16:55:01 GMT
I had thought about proxying a RS unit with the Knot, but thinking about it, swapping in the Knot (and making it a requisition) nets you 3 points to upgrade the Basher to an Axer. Not sure if it's better, worse, or same, but I really want to try this list and really don't want to buy a fifth unit of Runeshapers.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Dec 15, 2019 16:17:33 GMT
Hypothesizing on match-up questions is common for those of us who don't/can't get in many games per week. Or don't own a plethora of models. Some of the questioning of new innovative lists relates to that, and thus we seek experiences/data here to supplement and aid. Hopefully not to criticize!
Currently double Supreme Guardians, 3" Thresher w/ personal S&P, accompanying Zaal2s Immortals is a common army to face in my venue. How would the OPs army fare? Experiences?
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Post by anoddman on Dec 15, 2019 18:15:11 GMT
Hypothesizing on match-up questions is common for those of us who don't/can't get in many games per week. Or don't own a plethora of models. Some of the questioning of new innovative lists relates to that, and thus we seek experiences/data here to supplement and aid. Hopefully not to criticize! Currently double Ancestral Guardians, 3" Thresher w/ personal S&P, accompanying Zaal2s Immortals is a common army to face in my venue. How would the OPs army fare? Experiences? JJH would be the best person to talk to as he has way more experience with this list than I do. That being said, I think Mulg is your ticket here. Mulg outthreats the Supreme Guardian for days, and with Hermit aura and Stone Strength has a decent chance of taking out an SG under Zaal's feat. Meanwhile, Runeshapers and Shamblers are fairly easily killing Immortals outside of feat turn. My game plan going in would be to set up Mulg and the Hermit to take out one SG (no need for the Hermit if you can burn through Arcane Vortex to tag with Calamity). Grissel feats to give Mulg Heroic Ballad and Hoof It. Mulg kills on SG and backs up to relatively safety, hoping body-blocking and Hermit can keep him alive. If not, Basher with a little help from Runeshapers/Archons/Janissa can plan to kill the other SG off of feat turn. That's my best guesstimate. I can try to get a local player to switch back to Skorne from Infernals to test out the matchup. Again, John Jr Henry would be the better person to talk to. He's on the Troll FB page and the Warmachine discord. Side note, there's no issue with raising matchup questions. That's all part of the dojo!
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Dec 15, 2019 20:04:33 GMT
Hypothesizing on match-up questions is common for those of us who don't/can't get in many games per week. Or don't own a plethora of models. Some of the questioning of new innovative lists relates to that, and thus we seek experiences/data here to supplement and aid. Hopefully not to criticize! Currently double Ancestral Guardians, 3" Thresher w/ personal S&P, accompanying Zaal2s Immortals is a common army to face in my venue. How would the OPs army fare? Experiences? JJH would be the best person to talk to as he has way more experience with this list than I do. That being said, I think Mulg is your ticket here. Mulg outthreats the Supreme Guardian for days, and with Hermit aura and Stone Strength has a decent chance of taking out an SG under Zaal's feat. Meanwhile, Runeshapers and Shamblers are fairly easily killing Immortals outside of feat turn. My game plan going in would be to set up Mulg and the Hermit to take out one SG (no need for the Hermit if you can burn through Arcane Vortex to tag with Calamity). Grissel feats to give Mulg Heroic Ballad and Hoof It. Mulg kills on SG and backs up to relatively safety, hoping body-blocking and Hermit can keep him alive. If not, Basher with a little help from Runeshapers/Archons/Janissa can plan to kill the other SG off of feat turn. That's my best guesstimate. I can try to get a local player to switch back to Skorne from Infernals to test out the matchup. Again, John Jr Henry would be the better person to talk to. He's on the Troll FB page and the Warmachine discord. Side note, there's no issue with raising matchup questions. That's all part of the dojo! I wonder what Mulg's odds of killing an SG with vision up, or vision+feat? and unless I'm missing something even with hoof it Mulg's going to be able to be a maximum of 6' away from the SG after it's done attacking it, which isn't very far. if you use body blockers to protect him, unless you've already very late in the game they're probably going to melt under vengeanced immortals. a 22 point character beast for a 16 point BE doesn't seem like an amazing trade to me. I wonder if it's worth it for Zaal2 to even bother casting annihilation in this matchup? neither the bokor nor the shamblers are that impressive, seems to me like even with them they're better off boosting on the immortals.
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Post by anoddman on Dec 15, 2019 21:39:19 GMT
JJH would be the best person to talk to as he has way more experience with this list than I do. That being said, I think Mulg is your ticket here. Mulg outthreats the Supreme Guardian for days, and with Hermit aura and Stone Strength has a decent chance of taking out an SG under Zaal's feat. Meanwhile, Runeshapers and Shamblers are fairly easily killing Immortals outside of feat turn. My game plan going in would be to set up Mulg and the Hermit to take out one SG (no need for the Hermit if you can burn through Arcane Vortex to tag with Calamity). Grissel feats to give Mulg Heroic Ballad and Hoof It. Mulg kills on SG and backs up to relatively safety, hoping body-blocking and Hermit can keep him alive. If not, Basher with a little help from Runeshapers/Archons/Janissa can plan to kill the other SG off of feat turn. That's my best guesstimate. I can try to get a local player to switch back to Skorne from Infernals to test out the matchup. Again, John Jr Henry would be the better person to talk to. He's on the Troll FB page and the Warmachine discord. Side note, there's no issue with raising matchup questions. That's all part of the dojo! I wonder what Mulg's odds of killing an SG with vision up, or vision+feat? and unless I'm missing something even with hoof it Mulg's going to be able to be a maximum of 6' away from the SG after it's done attacking it, which isn't very far. if you use body blockers to protect him, unless you've already very late in the game they're probably going to melt under vengeanced immortals. a 22 point character beast for a 16 point BE doesn't seem like an amazing trade to me. I wonder if it's worth it for Zaal2 to even bother casting annihilation in this matchup? neither the bokor nor the shamblers are that impressive, seems to me like even with them they're better off boosting on the immortals. Mulg's got about a 58% chance of killing the Supreme Guardian himself if the Hermit's aura is up. That's under feat and Vision. If I can burn through Arcane Vortex then Calamity makes this even more likely. We can go back and forth all day on theorymachine. I'm assuming both SGs aren't being played centrally, so Mulg backing up 4" is away from the right or left flank of the army. From there, it's a matter of figuring out the best way to reduce the number of hits on Mulg. If I'm worried about Vengeancing Immortals, I'm going to be careful as to which units I trigger vengeance on. Keep in mind, body-blocking in this list is assisted by two instances of Vision from the Dhunian Archons and (in a pinch) one from the Hermit (though I'd rather save that for a hit on Mulg). I'd probably want 1-2 Runeshapers blocking lanes to Mulg though as they're significantly more difficult to remove. And again, this is a rough guess on how I'd play into the list. I'm betting that Mulg can alpha an SG off the table without trading.
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Post by Kevin on Jan 26, 2020 8:31:39 GMT
Finally had time to proxy and play this list. With few changes - dropped the 5th unit of Shapers in exchange for 2 Shamans, dropped the max stone for changing basher to axer. Dropped it against Morvana1(mortality, yay). Kinda know now, why Dhunia Archont is FA2 only in PoD. Even against mortality caster I healed probably around 50+ boxes through the game. Was fun for me Hermit in this list is ridiculous.
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Post by anoddman on Jan 26, 2020 23:51:24 GMT
Finally had time to proxy and play this list. With few changes - dropped the 5th unit of Shapers in exchange for 2 Shamans, dropped the max stone for changing basher to axer. Dropped it against Morvana1(mortality, yay). Kinda know now, why Dhunia Archont is FA2 only in PoD. Even against mortality caster I healed probably around 50+ boxes through the game. Was fun for me Hermit in this list is ridiculous. I always love when Mortality casters try to set up a dead Mulg. "Alright, before my heavy charges in I'm gonna cast Mortality for 3 on Mulg." "Cool, I'll have Mulg eat that with Arcane Vortex." "Uhh... you can do that again, right?" "Yep." "Fine! My heavy didn't need Mortality anyway! I charge, I hit, I do 10 points of damage!" "Cool, I'll have Mulg hit you back." "Wha--" "I crit and Smite you d6" backwards." "Hm. Well, at least I did a little bit of chip damage on Mulg this turn. I'll go after those Runeshapers on the left flank." "Cool, Mulg heals 6d3." "..." *internal screaming*
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Jan 27, 2020 13:21:25 GMT
I wonder if there is a budged version of the list Maybe featuring less RS and Shamblers but keeping Archon (at least 1) with Hermit and also adding whelps. This came to mind, but I think it is strictly weaker than Henrys list tbh Trollbloods [Theme] Power of Dhunia [Grissel 1] Grissel Bloodsong, Fell Caller [+29] - Dire Troll Bomber [17] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [5] Dhunian Archon [0(6)] Dhunian Archon [0(6)] Hermit of Henge Hold [5] Northkin Shaman [4] Northkin Shaman [4] Troll Whelps [4] Dhunian Knot [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Runeshapers [8] Trollkin Runeshapers [8] Trollkin Runeshapers [8]
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Post by Kevin on Jan 27, 2020 15:52:09 GMT
Reasons I went for shamans instead of runeshapers aren't for money issues. Grissel likes(at least in my experiance) to be in the middle of the field and they offer mobile cloud bunker. Also with the ability to put a cloud at front of the flag and then teleport to flag is ok. Also the ability yo teleport can get them into strange places to contest. Have to playtest them more, but for now sticking to it.
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