|
Post by anoddman on Nov 23, 2019 21:22:48 GMT
Has anyone playing this list run into Doomreavers spam? Considering the suggested pairing for this is Grissel2 with two War Wagons, I don’t think it’s much of an issue.
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Nov 25, 2019 21:45:45 GMT
The Hermit is freaking immortal in this list! The only suffers a single damage, then both archon can keep him alive and if anything dies the Hermit can be healed for D3 (archon is friendly not friendly faction). I think the list is really great. Maybe I would replace a unit of runeshapers with shamans but this really makes me want to buy runeshapers
|
|
|
Post by anoddman on Nov 25, 2019 23:08:27 GMT
The Hermit is freaking immortal in this list! The only suffers a single damage, then both archon can keep him alive and if anything dies the Hermit can be healed for D3 (archon is friendly not friendly faction). I think the list is really great. Maybe I would replace a unit of runeshapers with shamans but this really makes me want to buy runeshapers Hm, interesting. One fewer body for a couple magical sprays doesn't seem too shabby.
|
|
|
Post by dickovdk on Nov 26, 2019 11:54:38 GMT
While I am not trying to be negative or anything but what we are talking about is extra healing and knockdown tec across the board. With Tharn, Immortals and Cryx basically laughing at exactly that. So what are we targeting here. I mean our meta might be strange but those three, Harbinger and Tridents is all thats played where I am (maybe an odd Grymkin here and there but still) I have a really really hard time to see more healing in an anti-healing mecca is providing answers. Same goes for anti-knockdown where Immortals (Guardians) have been the most versatile list covering basically any matchup for last 9 months?
I love the way John thinks out of the box, and endorse that with all my heart but find it really hard to be viable.
|
|
|
Post by allinontrolls on Nov 26, 2019 14:04:48 GMT
The runeshaper List in probably Not build to kill imortals but i hearded we have a themeforce which offers takedown. Buffalos in boh demolish immortals. John did not say that His List will Stomp the Meta. He just Want to try something New. If you want Meta Troll List you have to wait for the dynamic Update and as long as we are waiting just try something New and have some fun.
|
|
|
Post by dickovdk on Nov 26, 2019 16:40:15 GMT
The runeshaper List in probably Not build to kill imortals but i hearded we have a themeforce which offers takedown. Buffalos in boh demolish immortals. John did not say that His List will Stomp the Meta. He just Want to try something New. If you want Meta Troll List you have to wait for the dynamic Update and as long as we are waiting just try something New and have some fun. Actually John and I have talked about that list some, and its not that I dislike it or anything (which I do believe is apparent in previous post) but while its strange and wierd and can catch many unprepared players (me included) off guard, is all well and cool. And as John have mentioned a bunch of times we need to think out of the box, I agree wholehearted. Which is also why I feel pushing our healing ability from high to extreme seem strange as this is exactly why trolls have a hard time to begin with. We rely on healing so getting it tenfolded just make us more dependend on it. As for Dynamic update - well - lets see whats in there before we judge that as being anything.
|
|
|
Post by anoddman on Nov 26, 2019 20:28:25 GMT
While I am not trying to be negative or anything but what we are talking about is extra healing and knockdown tec across the board. With Tharn, Immortals and Cryx basically laughing at exactly that. So what are we targeting here. I mean our meta might be strange but those three, Harbinger and Tridents is all thats played where I am (maybe an odd Grymkin here and there but still) I have a really really hard time to see more healing in an anti-healing mecca is providing answers. Same goes for anti-knockdown where Immortals (Guardians) have been the most versatile list covering basically any matchup for last 9 months? I love the way John thinks out of the box, and endorse that with all my heart but find it really hard to be viable. This feels like matchup paralysis to me. Take Immortals. Yes, Runeshapers have access to a lot of knockdown and Crit-knockdown, but they're also absolutely shredding Immortals with their POW 14s. The list has multiple methods for removing a battle engine from the table too. You aren't relying on KD to really do anything. Take Tharn. How often do you see two units of Bloodweavers, two Night Witches, and Lord of the Feast? MAYBE one of each of those. I've played against plenty of Tharn list that only run Lord of the Feast. Yes they have access to Grievous Wounds, but that fact alone does not preclude you from playing into that matchup. I would argue it doesn't even reduce your chances into the matchups. Runeshapers are accurate, high damage and don't care about being engaged, and they're happy throwing Rock Hammers into all types of Tharn. I'll confess, I'm not as familiar with the Cryx matchup. But once again, ask yourself if your opponent having counter-play is enough to prevent you from playing the list. I think this is a pretty big problem among Warmahordes players as a whole. Someone comes up with an idea and people point out that there are rules and abilities that counteract that idea. In some instances, it's warranted. A list based around cold sprays is gonna have a hard time into Storm of the North, and if everyone in the world is playing Storm in the North then you should worry. But if no is playing it, worry less. There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical, I get it. I think we as a community are really good at posing critical questions, but less good about actually putting lists on the table. Not saying this list is for everybody, but everything always, always, always come down to smart play on the table.
|
|
|
Post by dickovdk on Nov 26, 2019 21:30:45 GMT
There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical, I get it. I think we as a community are really good at posing critical questions, but less good about actually putting lists on the table. Not saying this list is for everybody, but everything always, always, always come down to smart play on the table. Well lets be honest smart play always adds to the chances but trolls haven't been left much of a change for a long time. Outside what John have done recently trolls have been gone since primal terror and tharns came around. My question (and skepitisme) aren't whether this list is playable or not but basically Trolls in general. They wasn't viable against the dominating lists earlier. Now we get pygTanks and Dhunian, that empathize on what we were able to do already, being healing and knockdown (war wagon was/is afterall a really good model already). So I don't understand the uproar for asking why people think that more of what we couldn't survive on earlier suddenly should be okay considering the meta basically have been the same since arrival of tharns (Where I live at least).
|
|
shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
|
Post by shmeep on Nov 26, 2019 22:42:16 GMT
We're steering off topic here, but I'll say it again - it really bothers me that whenever people talk about thinking outside the box / trying something new the very first thing they grab is the WW. War Wagon, War Wagon, War Wagon. That's not creative thinking, it's a crutch. It kinda seems to me like the WW is to TB what the Turtle used to be to Skorne.
On topic, the list's not really new, but it's interesting to see RoW get new life. It kinda reinforces my thought that these single unit themes really need at least variant, though. Matter of taste, obviously, but I don't like spam lists, doubly so if you can't use the models anywhere else.
|
|
|
Post by anoddman on Nov 27, 2019 2:52:00 GMT
We're steering off topic here, but I'll say it again - it really bothers me that whenever people talk about thinking outside the box / trying something new the very first thing they grab is the WW. War Wagon, War Wagon, War Wagon. That's not creative thinking, it's a crutch. It kinda seems to me like the WW is to TB what the Turtle used to be to Skorne. On topic, the list's not really new, but it's interesting to see RoW get new life. It kinda reinforces my thought that these single unit themes really need at least variant, though. Matter of taste, obviously, but I don't like spam lists, doubly so if you can't use the models anywhere else. Eh, this is so far removed from Runes of War. Just having Runeshapers doesn't mean it plays the same at all. Instead of Purification, Force Lock, KD charges, Transmute and Walls, we get recursion, healing, Vision, Arcane Vortex, and all of the shenanigans in Grissel1's kit.
|
|
|
Post by anoddman on Nov 27, 2019 3:18:46 GMT
There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical, I get it. I think we as a community are really good at posing critical questions, but less good about actually putting lists on the table. Not saying this list is for everybody, but everything always, always, always come down to smart play on the table. Well lets be honest smart play always adds to the chances but trolls haven't been left much of a change for a long time. Outside what John have done recently trolls have been gone since primal terror and tharns came around. My question (and skepitisme) aren't whether this list is playable or not but basically Trolls in general. They wasn't viable against the dominating lists earlier. Now we get pygTanks and Dhunian, that empathize on what we were able to do already, being healing and knockdown (war wagon was/is afterall a really good model already). So I don't understand the uproar for asking why people think that more of what we couldn't survive on earlier suddenly should be okay considering the meta basically have been the same since arrival of tharns (Where I live at least). You're missing the point. Yes, the meta has had access to anti-KD and Grievous Wounds. The issue is that players see that and say things like, "Oh, the Dhunian Archon looks cool, but I could never run one with all the healing prevention around." They see Grievous Wounds in a list and get worried that a key ability is going to be turned off, thus sidelining their list idea. But that's not conducive to generating new dojo. Instead, we need players to get better at knowing their opponent's lists, isolating which parts of their opponent's kit are most troublesome to their gameplan, and assessing how best to maximize their own abilities while accepting that their opponent will be able to partially negate them. EDIT: I want to add an example here. That Immortal matchup: what about this list makes you afraid to drop it into Immortals? Same for Tharn: what about this list makes you afraid to drop it? I think if the answers are anti-KD and access to Grievous Wounds, we're highlighting my point. There's nothing wrong with discussing problem matchups, but the meta conversation is getting hyper-focused to the point that "Tharn" gets conflated with "can't play a list into them that relies on healing" which isn't remotely true. And even then, the Archon is doing so much more than healing, just like the Pyg Tank has more in its kit than just KD. --DISCLAIMER-- All of this is said with a big happy smile. Friendly discussion is friendly.
|
|
jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
|
Post by jarrow on Nov 27, 2019 6:11:04 GMT
anoddman has really good points. Not this list, but I have recently played mostly Borka2 and done stress test to my double-EDBT-double-HHH list. I have played it against weapon master spams and colossals that on the paper are hardest match-ups because of the nature of the feat. And have to say that I have much more convinced about that list than before and have to say that I have worried those kind of match-ups too much.
For that Henry list there is so much healing and so many targets that couple of GW wont matter a shit. Yes, you will lose those models touched by GW, but you then heal something else and most likely kill GW model after that. This game is all about piece trade and games where you don't lose a single (important)model are quite rare.
Made my own try inspired by Henry:
Trollbloods [Theme] Power of Dhunia
!!! This army contains pre-release entries.
[Borka 1] Borka Kegslayer [+28] - Mountain King [36] - Troll Axer [10] Dhunian Archon [0(6)] Dhunian Archon [0(6)] Hermit of Henge Hold [5] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Northkin Shaman [4] Troll Whelps [4] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Runeshapers [8] Trollkin Runeshapers [8] Trollkin Runeshapers [8]
|
|
|
Post by dickovdk on Nov 27, 2019 8:36:11 GMT
--DISCLAIMER-- All of this is said with a big happy smile. Friendly discussion is friendly. I dont take it as anything else
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 27, 2019 10:29:30 GMT
For that Henry list there is so much healing and so many targets that couple of GW wont matter a shit. Yes, you will lose those models touched by GW, but you then heal something else and most likely kill GW model after that. This game is all about piece trade and games where you don't lose a single (important)model are quite rare. I don't play Trolls (I play Cryx), but I just wanted to chime in that this is very true. I've played a Skarre 3 list for a long time with a lot of (Blighted) Trollkin and Mortality or army-wide Takedown are very threatening to it, but that's really it. Against Wolves of Winter for instance, it attritioned just fine, despite multiple models having Entropic Force; those have big targets on their heads. Even against Cryx, lists will have, at most, a handful of Stalkers and maybe some Bloodwitches. For the rest, Grievous Wounds are far and between in the faction. Many lists have maybe 1 or 2 anti-healing pieces, which can give you insight in what your opponent will drop against you. It's all about forcing your opponent to make suboptimal decisions. If that Stalker can only tag a single model, or maybe eat 2 infantry models, before dying to the counter attack, that's a bad use of that Stalker. So either the model gets committed and you win the trade, or it doesn't, and you survive. Once the pieces with Grievous Wounds have been neutered, the rest of your (healing) models can breathe much more easily. The game is indeed about piece trading and coming out ahead. I think the real victim is Doomshaper 3, because he really does suffer if his couple of beasts get tagged on his feat. Tough and healing are still rather viable as attrition tools.
|
|
|
Post by trollbloodironmonger on Nov 28, 2019 21:23:47 GMT
The Hermit is freaking immortal in this list! The only suffers a single damage, then both archon can keep him alive and if anything dies the Hermit can be healed for D3 (archon is friendly not friendly faction). I think the list is really great. Maybe I would replace a unit of runeshapers with shamans but this really makes me want to buy runeshapers Still a bit new (well, coming back kinda new, but still). Which shamans were you referring to? This list is awesome, and definitely convinced me to check out the Dhunian Archons again, misread/underestimated them. I like the Boker/Shamblers, though I do agree that I kinda wish there were models that were a bit more thematic. Conversions are harder in Warmachine, needing to be mostly PP materials and recognizable... I assume something like Trollblood Warriors or Fennblades wouldn't be as good due to cost and a lack of recursion? I do get worried about digging into so many duplicates of a unit. That many Runeshapers are awesome (though big duplicated in poses) but certainly an expensive niche list, doubt I'd ever use that many Runeshapers with any consistency. Could do some solid conversion work, which could be fun none-the-less...
|
|