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Post by auraco on Nov 10, 2019 20:01:05 GMT
Ok so now that I've played a couple of games with Vlad3 in warrior of the old faith I can list some conclusions.
First, wow menite models are really really good, like my lists barely have any khadoran models in them...
The Judicator is so much better than our own colossals and has been able to bully the board for me in a way that our own Victor and Conquest have never been able to do, higher rat, auto signs & portents and higher speed, this is all great.
The vengers are strait up upgrade over the ulhans, the one extra armor (well when they are angry) and not needing to stay in base contact to get the bonus has been doing great for me
The only point where the menite models are not a strait up upgrade for us is the light cav role, I'd rate the outriders and flame bringers as about as good, both really shine with hand of fate, and it depends on what you want to do with your list for which unit to bring. The outriders are great in a couple of match ups, the flame bringers in others, I've had a lot of success against Circle with Flame bringers under hand of fate, they are actually pretty good at killing tharns.
The menite archon is bonkers, all my warrior of the old faith list will start with two of them, for sure.
The initiates are great, they put the rager to shame
Vilmon is a great solo Vlad3 is a weird caster... On his own he's pretty meh, his feat is terrible, but dash is great, so is infernal machine on a Judicator, and hand of fate is... well hand of fate. I feel like the power of warrior of the old faith comes from the list itself rather than from the caster running it, I'll need to try the other casters with the list, if infernal machine is great on a judicator I imagine redline is also going to be great. The initiates and the hermit are pretty good to help Feora3 survive... Maybe, her entire kit seems to be build around incite... She'll need more wrack and vassals than Vlad for sure. Not too sure how to build kreoss3 and Reznik2, will need to test some stuff on the table.
How have you guys been doing with Warriors of the old faith so far?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 11, 2019 0:20:16 GMT
auraco , I’ve played a couple of times and like it, last time using this list: Theme: Warriors of the Old Faith 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey - WJ: +27 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Menite Archon - PC: 8 Wrack - PC: 1 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Iron Fang Uhlans - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 I really liked this list, but want to try swapping out the Uhlans for Vengers. I recently picked up 2 used (pre owned? pre loved?) units, Kreoss, and a unit of flamebringer. In the match I played with Outriders, though, they were absolutely sick with Dash + HOF since they were able to just snuggle all the way up to my crucible guard opponent and rip his heavy infantry to shreds. This list doesn’t feel like it’s got any fat it it, but if the GC is not you jam then you could sub in other stuff for it. I agree with you that the Judicator in this list feels like a boss. HOWEVER, I really think in the current steamroller packet you either need 2 jacks or a jack and a battle engine, and having tried both with Vlad 3, I think he prefers the battle engine over an additional SPD 4 heavy. However, adding a light Menoth jack plus either a 2nd archon or Cav solo probably works (I haven’t tried that).
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Post by auraco on Nov 11, 2019 2:17:40 GMT
The outriders and the flames bringers are both very good, they excel in different match ups but they can both shine very easily. The reason why I'm currently going with Flame bringers in my current list, is that it's paired with Vlad2 wolves of winter who has the full outriders, so I don't want to go with full outriders in my two lists because the outriders do have their counters. Depending on your pairing both ca be a valid option. I'm not super comfortable playing Vlad2 wolves into Tharn, but Vlad3 wolves with flame bringers does it very well. Flame bringers with hand of fate just decimate tharn, like a lot so that's one match up where they are just better than the outriders.
They are also the best target for Vlad3's feat, with native parry it means you don't necessarily need to cast dash (save two focus, woho!) to get them to sprint back, the multiple initial attacks also mean less chance to get screwed by tough and that's before considering the crit grevious. Can someone who's actually good at math tell me what the odds are of getting the crit grevious with a charge attack and hand of fate, maybe I was just lucky in my games with them, but I did get quite a few. Far from an automatic thing, but enough to make the unit decimate ravagers.
@armchair Warrior Against Crucible guard tho, yeah Outriders all the way, they are harder to kill for the CG player than the flame bringers and they threat further against usually squishy models.
Try the Vengers, you'll see they are simply better than the ulhans, by a pretty fair margin... Enough to really make me question if Ulhans are really worth 20 points.
You bring a good point about the battle engine, the one game I did lose was in the scenario King of the Hill, where an independant battle engine can be really great to score on one side while Vlad and the judicator do their thing on the other side.
Did the CG list against which you played have a lot of guns? Warrior of the old faith has some tools to play into guns, Choir, Windwall and initiates, your list lacks initiates.
Dojoing lists is weird though, a lot of the stuff you want to take takes big chunks of points so you're left with little wiggle room to build the list, also since everything is so expansive points are tights and it's hard to chose what to bring and what to leave out when you have models like Champion of the order of the wall as an option but there never seems to be enough points for them.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 11, 2019 2:47:33 GMT
auraco, my opponent played Lucas with 4 jacks (including the arc node), double storm troopers, a dragons breath, hutchuck, combat Alchemists, and some additional random support. Vlad is fast enough that he can hang pretty far back and play it safe. I had Vilmont and the Hermit, and didn’t feel like I was missing the Initiates. I just don’t know where I’d find the points to squeeze them in. In Faithful Masses, they’re free, so yeah...if you own ‘em, stuff in 21 points for free. Go nuts. Here? Damn, points are tight. The start of my list is a Judicator, 2 full units of cav, a unit of Choir, and an archon. OK, so now I’ve got 18 points to play with... Not for nothing, I do want to try Kreoss double Vengers (just need to assemble the models...) I’m not sure what else to put with him. I don’t own Feora, but will probably purchase her at some point. I havn’t heard folks say great things about her other than she’s a good caster to play if you want victory snatched away from you. CMD 9 on your signature spell leaves you too exposed, I guess. Flame trail seems like it would be hilarious on a Devastator...
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Post by auraco on Nov 11, 2019 18:41:11 GMT
Yeah the initiates in Warrior of the old faith are expansive enough to be a pay for one unit not more thing. The requisition choice in Warrior of the old faith is pretty underwhelming... Hermit and Vilmon for sure, the last one is a toss up between Yuri and double Vassal, I don't really see an occastion where it would be anything else.
I also haven't heard much good about Feora3, but a new theme can do a lot of a caster, before warrior of the old faith I had nothing good to say about Vlad3, he was probably on of the worst caster in out faction, now with Warrior of the old faith he's at least playable if not a solid pick, something I wasn't expecting to say about him. Same might happen to Feora3, people complain that she dies too easily in menoth, but in warrior of the old faith she has access to the Hermit, the initiates and models that are actually fast enough to keep up with her on the battlefield. It might still not be enough, but it's at least enough for me to give her a chance.
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Post by Havock on Nov 11, 2019 22:54:24 GMT
Feora3 is for oddball lists. conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1Gp77q7q7qeV8foRoLoL3t3z3z3B3B8y30niniKhador [Theme] Warriors of the Old Faith [Feora 3] Feora, the Conquering Flame [+27] - Devastator [14] - Devastator [14] - Devastator [14] - Hand of Judgment [18] - War Dog [3] Hermit of Henge Hold [0(5)] Menite Archon [8] Menite Archon [8] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Yuri the Axe [0(5)] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Initiates of the Wall [7] Initiates of the Wall [7] Three hard-to-kill jacks that, if you don't kill them are perfectly capable of ditching their "pillow-fisted reputation" by punching at MAT8 PS20/22. Or POW22/24 Rain of Death. Could drop Yuri for Vilmon or wracks/mechanics. Or the Archons for, say, Outriders.
The biggest problem our collossals have is that SPD4 + huge base = suffering. SPD5 is a massive difference (well it is a 25% increase), for one it can clear its own base without resorting to a run or charge/trample, or relying on a buff.
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Post by michael on Nov 12, 2019 17:59:48 GMT
Ain’t it wacky how Protectorate players said “But, but, our colossal is too slow!” and it went to SPD 5, but somehow all the Khador players knew better than to even ask, lest we get a nerf for our troubles?
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Post by sand20go on Nov 12, 2019 18:28:36 GMT
Ain’t it wacky how Protectorate players said “But, but, our colossal is too slow!” and it went to SPD 5, but somehow all the Khador players knew better than to even ask, lest we get a nerf for our troubles? Vlad1 tax. I am convinced one of the reasons we pay these sorts of taxes is that we have some GREAT _individual_ warcasters and thus you have to balance the entire faction around those combos Get ready for a Zerkova1 nerf since it was shown at WFW that you can she pilots double archons pretty damm well.
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Post by michael on Nov 12, 2019 18:32:48 GMT
I might honestly throw away my Z1 model if she got worse.
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Post by auraco on Nov 12, 2019 19:00:37 GMT
A good theme can make or break a warcaster, Zerkova1 is not bad, but she never had a theme that could use her kit well, until flame in the dark that is. Who cares that the caster doesn't have a damage buff a to hit buff and a spd buff when the list itself has plenty of damage buff, already highly accurate guys with a lot of access to blessed and a built in spd buff in the form of vengeance. He feat stays great, she finally has access to the arc node everyone has wanted for her since fore ever and well, archons.
Vlad3 is in the same boat, I think he was a serious contender for our worst caster before warrior of the old faith, now that statement can't be true.
Also before we get hit by the nerfbat, they don't nerf lists over result from on event, it would take way more than that to get a model nerfed. If you guys are still salty about the karchev mad dog thing, get over it, that list was completely stupid and needed to be nerfed, you don't get any victim point over that one, it's like the circle players that complain about the lord of the feast nerf, it doesn't deserve any violin.
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Post by michael on Nov 12, 2019 20:37:41 GMT
To be fair: the Lord of the Feast was at least an objectively good model both before and after the “nerf”. I would hesitate to call any iteration of the Berserker ever “good.”
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Post by sand20go on Nov 13, 2019 0:24:26 GMT
Also before we get hit by the nerfbat, they don't nerf lists over result from on event, My mad dogs would like a word and Karchev is writing up a memo.
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Post by michael on Nov 13, 2019 2:42:44 GMT
To be fair: the Lord of the Feast was at least an objectively good model both before and after the “nerf”. I would hesitate to call any iteration of the Berserker ever “good.” ... and this is coming from somebody who lived the dream in MK I and trampled over like more than a dozen Steelhead Halberdiers during Karchev’s feat turn and went in with a bought attack on the opponent’s caster at something like effective boosted MAT 19 and something like an effective boosted P+S 33...
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 13, 2019 14:18:54 GMT
If you guys are still salty about the karchev mad dog thing, get over it, that list was completely stupid and needed to be nerfed, you don't get any victim point over that one, it's like the circle players that complain about the lord of the feast nerf, it doesn't deserve any violin. Man, who took the jam out of your donut?
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Post by auraco on Nov 14, 2019 1:19:35 GMT
If you guys are still salty about the karchev mad dog thing, get over it, that list was completely stupid and needed to be nerfed, you don't get any victim point over that one, it's like the circle players that complain about the lord of the feast nerf, it doesn't deserve any violin. Man, who took the jam out of your donut? I though it was clear, players complaining about the karchev mad dog nerf...
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