gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jan 2, 2020 2:03:48 GMT
I think the game infernals campaign is basically just the warmachine version of ww2. It’s just devastating to this land in a way that hasn’t really been seen before.
I want a scene ( like in return of the king with Aragorn and the ghosts) where thagrosh goes and summons a spirit army.
Itd be cool to see a legion of lost skorne souls with that. Sort of like a unit of void spirits
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 2, 2020 2:54:04 GMT
The hengehold scroll seems to hint at a troll/cygnar/ Khador alliance. Also, would Leto become a playable unit? That leaves everblight, circle, skorne, grymkin. What on earth would a grim kin ally be? Maybe circle? Old witch was a Druid once, right? She’s certainly aware of the infernals, they might be her preferred style of allies. That would leave a hypothetical skorne/ everblight alliance. I think skorne is most likely to have a more “survival only” type ally Sometimes I wonder if PP doesn't have an eye on threads like this one just so they can know exactly what players want... and not give it to them.
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Post by Azahul on Jan 2, 2020 3:11:11 GMT
I wouldn't necessarily expect the Hordes factions to just pair off. The Warmachine ones didn't, after all. The cross-faction themes so far have been Flame in the Darkness (Cygnar, Khador, Mercenaries), Warriors of the Old Faith (Khador, Protectorate), and Strange Bedfellows (Convergence, Mercenaries, but including Cryx and Cygnar models). Hordes could easily have a Troll-Circle-Grymkin alliance, a Circle-Legion alliance, and a Skorne-Retribution alliance, or some similar asymmetric allocation of strange bedfellows ( ).
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 2, 2020 3:27:16 GMT
Don't forget Minions in that list. A lot of the Warcaster-side options mix in a lot of Merc options.
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Post by Azahul on Jan 2, 2020 3:56:18 GMT
I'm not 100% sure where Minions should fit into all this. They have pretty flimsy ties to the other Hordes factions, unlike Mercs where there are often clear relationships forged over a decade of story. Part of that is that Minions have had almost zero story presence since their inception, even in the old expansion book days where every faction had its own fluff stories, the only time I remember Minions getting a story outside of a character introduction is a brief, brief mention of some Gators being hired by Trolls to harry Skorne off-screen.
Based on their past involvement, the obvious choices would be Legion-Thornfall and Circle-Blindwater, but even those are a little tenuous. I don't see Minions being anywhere near as prevalent in the Hordes cross-faction themes as they are in Warmachine, in no small part because of the existence in most Hordes factions of a Minion-centric theme.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 2, 2020 6:18:45 GMT
Skorne have some good ties to the Thornfall, pretty much going through part of their domain to reach Cygnar. Trollbloods have moved in pretty close to the Blindwater as well right around the time the Skorne were invading. so...
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Post by Azahul on Jan 2, 2020 6:29:42 GMT
I mean in terms of prior groundwork rather than geography. If you look at the cross faction theme forces that exist, there's a decent amount of grounding behind each of them. Vlad spent pretty much all of Mark II trying to make Warriors of the Old Faith happen (in the sense of trying to forge a Khador-Protectorate alliance against a greater threat). Aurora-Mortenebra's Strange Bedfellows doesn't have quite the same precedence, but there are undeniably strong ties between Mortenebra and the Convergence in the lore prior to that theme's existence. Same goes for Flame in the Darkness.
Conversely, there are barely any connections between the Minion sub-factions and the other Hordes factions. They hardly ever showed up in the same scene as one another in the lore before, and never in a way that felt... personal. Rask fought Grim, for example, but basically only because they tripped over one another and Rask needed an intro-fight for that book. Midas fought Skorne because, as you say, Skorne marches through the Thornfall's domain, but no Skorne Warlock ever appeared in that fight and it was nothing more complex than opportunistic banditry. The best case we have is Wurmwood manipulating both the Thornfall Alliance and Blindwater Congregation into attacking the Trolls at the end of Mark II... a story that is admittedly still unfinished years later from the Minion perspective.
Besides, what would a Skorne-Minion theme look like that isn't already covered by Disciples of Agony? Feels rather redundant. Even Secret Masters adequately covers the integration, such as it is, between those factions prior to this. Arkadius got along with Bethayne when they met, and has a prior history with Cygnar and Trolls, and that's the best I can think of that might match what the other themes have going for them.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 2, 2020 6:45:31 GMT
Think of what Arkadius could learn about pressure points and biology from the Skorne. Think about what the Skorne could learn about augmenting biology outside of their normal operations.
But then, there's just also targets of opportunity. A lot of these mixed Themes allow for selections from the groups Warcasters to be operating with 'Jacks outside of their normal experience. Sure, Zaadesh with a Road Hog isn't that surprising any more, but Arkadius or Rask with a Titan or Basilisk?
Makeda and Morghoul wouldn't be above sending out a combined force under a Gator or Farrow to rampage across Ios or the Protectorate so their main forces could focus on more important targets.
To say nothing of just another "Strange Bedfellows" in having Krueger team up with Trollbloods and maybe some outlying Farrow to handle a nascent Skorne, Legion, or Infernal probe.
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Post by Azahul on Jan 2, 2020 7:05:04 GMT
Think of what Arkadius could learn about pressure points and biology from the Skorne. Think about what the Skorne could learn about augmenting biology outside of their normal operations. But then, there's just also targets of opportunity. A lot of these mixed Themes allow for selections from the groups Warcasters to be operating with 'Jacks outside of their normal experience. Sure, Zaadesh with a Road Hog isn't that surprising any more, but Arkadius or Rask with a Titan or Basilisk? Makeda and Morghoul wouldn't be above sending out a combined force under a Gator or Farrow to rampage across Ios or the Protectorate so their main forces could focus on more important targets. What you've just described is merely Disciples of Agony Plus. Just giving Minion Warlocks access to Skorne beasts in return doesn't warrant a new theme. These cross faction themes aren't just a chance to explore new gameplay options, they also mean something in the lore. Sending out Farrow or Gator forces to harry opponents is something already covered by existing themes, either Disciples or by running a Minion army and suggesting that another faction hired it. Or even playing a 100 point game without themes and taking a mix of each. If I were to see anything Minions-wise, I'd want it to be a Cygnar-Minion theme representing Arkadius returning to help save/show up his old university colleagues in Corvis. That means something, it suggests a character arc the way the other cross-faction themes, it carries a story beyond "What if DOA allowed Minion Warlocks too. Unfortunately, I can't think of any other Minion-faction combination with any real pathos beyond that. All the rivalries and relationships among the Minion characters are internal. Maybe, maybe with Trolls, since Arkadius is loathed by them and they did all get embroiled in that late Mark 3 battle (where the culmination of the Minion arc was a Minion vs Minion battle with a third Minion wanting to interfere, we're such an insular faction...). Troll-Minion-Cygnar maybe? Based on the Hengehold Scroll, such an alliance seems plausible.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jan 2, 2020 9:53:20 GMT
It'd be interesting if PP pushed out more cross-faction themes for limited casters. As others have said, why not do the TB+Tharn(+gators?) Molgur/Wurm reunion, but limit it to only Doomie, Kromac+Iona (and someone from blindwater other than Barnie?), meanwhile PoD could be expanded to include any amount of farrow infantry, and possibly allow (some) farrow casters.
In general creating these GW style mini-alliances actually sounds like a pretty cool idea. I was originally pretty opposed to it, but factions are a lot more similar nowadays, so why not go wild?
(Tl;dr I want a ret+skorne Vyre theme)
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Post by beardmonk on Jan 2, 2020 13:19:18 GMT
Its odd the mix or reception on the new cross faction themes. As a more of a faction purist id prefer it if Trolls stayed as we are and just got another slight uplift. However from a company perspective the cross faction themes make sense as it encourages player to buy other/new models without PP having to create anything new other than rules. Allowing them to focus on NeoMechanica.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jan 2, 2020 13:42:56 GMT
Its odd the mix or reception on the new cross faction themes. As a more of a faction purist id prefer it if Trolls stayed as we are and just got another slight uplift. However from a company perspective the cross faction themes make sense as it encourages player to buy other/new models without PP having to create anything new other than rules. Allowing them to focus on NeoMechanica. I think as long as it stays limited to a very small range of troops and doesn't overshadow all other options it's a great way to reward people who own multiplw factions. I'm not sure, but I think I'd prefer if they kept it closer to FitD, where you get limited access to tools from either factions but the theme has its own stars. As I've said, faction identities have largely been eroded at this point, so it's not as much of an issue.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 2, 2020 13:45:07 GMT
Its odd the mix or reception on the new cross faction themes. As a more of a faction purist id prefer it if Trolls stayed as we are and just got another slight uplift. However from a company perspective the cross faction themes make sense as it encourages player to buy other/new models without PP having to create anything new other than rules. Allowing them to focus on NeoMechanica. I like them even though I will probably never buy into one of them unless the rumored Troll/Cygnar/Khador one happens as I don't have the time/money/space to dedicate to more factions. But I think they present an interesting design niche.
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fanguad
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by fanguad on Jan 2, 2020 14:06:22 GMT
If we were to take "unexpected" as a clue to new themes (ie Strange Bedfellows), what about Circle and Legion? They have vaguely similar playstyles and while they're mortal enemies in the lore, the whole point of this discussion is that the seriousness of the Infernal threat can make all sorts of weird alliances happen.
On the Legion side, Saeryn and Rhyas have their own wills, are loyal to Everblight, but currently pariahs. They would have some freedom to act in weird ways. Vayl mostly serves Everblight because he gives her more power.
On the Circle side, there are enough power-hungry zealots with flexible morals that a few might consider a temporary alliance.
My first thought for this alliance would be something along the lines of "burn down all the cities before the Infernals do, to deny them souls".
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jan 2, 2020 14:41:14 GMT
If we were to take "unexpected" as a clue to new themes (ie Strange Bedfellows), what about Circle and Legion? They have vaguely similar playstyles and while they're mortal enemies in the lore, the whole point of this discussion is that the seriousness of the Infernal threat can make all sorts of weird alliances happen. On the Legion side, Saeryn and Rhyas have their own wills, are loyal to Everblight, but currently pariahs. They would have some freedom to act in weird ways. Vayl mostly serves Everblight because he gives her more power. On the Circle side, there are enough power-hungry zealots with flexible morals that a few might consider a temporary alliance. My first thought for this alliance would be something along the lines of "burn down all the cities before the Infernals do, to deny them souls". I definitely recall one of the druids (Kruger?) Helped everblight take over/gain access to the leylines to combat Toruk, so a larger scale alliance between the blackclads and Legion is definitely on the table.
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