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Post by marxlives on Nov 15, 2019 16:29:30 GMT
One thing Toruk should be scared of, if it ever crossed his mind to investigate it, is that Everblight has split up his athanc among his Warlocks. If Infernals captured the athanc, it is possible that they could learn how to use it like they use souls, and they are far more powerful. They are also connected. If they captured all but Thagrosh, they could weaken Everblight enough to easily handle Thagrosh. If they manage to take all of Everblight's athancs, then they could weaken all the Dragons, except maybe Toruk. But from there, you just follow the pattern of taking down the dragon children through the athancs until Toruk is sufficiently hampered through the athancs. Think of each dragon as a Toruk horcrux, and you're getting the idea. Admittedly, this is extremely far-fetched, because only Everblight is aware of the athanc connections (it's how he controls his warlocks, after all) and the Infernals would have to figure it out. Of course, this is where we submit a warlock's inevitable betrayal of their master to unveil its secrets in return for Infernal power...
Skorne have been dupes for so long....and always on the wrong side of things. It’s sort of the main flaw they have in the story, just being the bull in the china shop shop. I just hope they don’t get fooled into siding with infernals For once, i hope they do the right thing, for all the wrong reasons
To be fair, they are a nation of a-holes...
I do wonder if one of the reasons Toruk doesn't feel directly threatened by the Infernals is because he is outside of the natural system of Immoren. Toruk is old, like so old he doesn't even remember his own origins. The whole reason he split his althanc is because he didn't know his own potential. And in early lore Toruk was an asteroid that impacted Immoren when the planet was still cooling. Even the Chimera in IKRPG is the dragon who flew into the elves god gate and exploded it. Even that explosion didn't destroy the althanc (though it did jack up the dragon's mind). And dragon's are also soulless. I am sure an Infernal can take an althanc through the gates but I don't know if it would be useful. It would be like taking a really smart chair over. They really can't do anything to it, and dragons are alien outsiders. This is why one of Toruk's titles is God of the Caen. Basically God of the Material World.
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Post by coolguyclay on Nov 15, 2019 19:09:57 GMT
Questions:
How does Circle's Devourer Wurm relate in the lore to the Dragons (Toruk or Everblight)? All this talk about Toruk was very interesting, keep it coming!
Lore related question: If Infernals are after human souls, are there any humans in Hordes? Alten Ashley and some other minions? Skorne are kind of elf-like, right? Circle's Druids - more elves? Infernals do not care about their souls, or actually anything with a "in-game defined soul" is good for an Infernal?
Think there could ever be a Skorne and Circle mixup? Mordikaar and the Wurm have some "history". Their construct powers would be an amazing theme force - construct beasts and Stones in Skorne? Immortals and AGs in Circle? Seems like constructs are a good way to stop soul-hunting things!
. . . unless we're burned by Skornergy again where our constructs finally get souls, and now are not immune from Infernals :-P
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 15, 2019 23:03:35 GMT
I do wonder if one of the reasons Toruk doesn't feel directly threatened by the Infernals is because he is outside of the natural system of Immoren. Toruk is old, like so old he doesn't even remember his own origins. The whole reason he split his althanc is because he didn't know his own potential. And in early lore Toruk was an asteroid that impacted Immoren when the planet was still cooling. Even the Chimera in IKRPG is the dragon who flew into the elves god gate and exploded it. Even that explosion didn't destroy the althanc (though it did jack up the dragon's mind). And dragon's are also soulless. I am sure an Infernal can take an althanc through the gates but I don't know if it would be useful. It would be like taking a really smart chair over. They really can't do anything to it, and dragons are alien outsiders. This is why one of Toruk's titles is God of the Caen. Basically God of the Material World. Yeah, Toruk probably cares as much about the Infernals as a farmer would a wasp colony setting up on the far side of his fields and just within flight range of some of his bees. The Iron Liches will be concerned because of them farming from the same resources they are using to track down the kids and possibly get in the way of their operations to get them out of hiding. Any actual concern by Toruk for himself would come from that.
Is there actual reference that dragon's don't have souls? Honestly, I would assume that if they did it would be as alien as Toruk is and completely residing within the athanc. Heck, for all I know the athanc is a solidified dragon soul.
Either way, athancs have a lot of power, just from the affects of the blight, and can reconstruct a dragon without any additional resources aside from time. That involves infinite energy reserves, for all intents and purposes. Considerably more than a human soul may provide. And all it would take is the naturally arrogant dragon to let themselves be experimented on by the Infernalists to make it a very bad day for all of them.
I wouldn't compare an athanc to a chair, it's more like a highly energetic isotope that can grow in to a Greater Daemon of Nurgle combined with a Hive Tyrant given the slightest opportunity. It's a very dangerous object that carries a lot of energy inside it, if you can access it.
Questions: How does Circle's Devourer Wurm relate in the lore to the Dragons (Toruk or Everblight)? All this talk about Toruk was very interesting, keep it coming! Lore related question: If Infernals are after human souls, are there any humans in Hordes? Alten Ashley and some other minions? Skorne are kind of elf-like, right? Circle's Druids - more elves? Infernals do not care about their souls, or actually anything with a "in-game defined soul" is good for an Infernal? Think there could ever be a Skorne and Circle mixup? Mordikaar and the Wurm have some "history". Their construct powers would be an amazing theme force - construct beasts and Stones in Skorne? Immortals and AGs in Circle? Seems like constructs are a good way to stop soul-hunting things! . . . unless we're burned by Skornergy again where our constructs finally get souls, and now are not immune from Infernals :-P Tharn are technically human, though, I don't think most of the Iron Kingdoms would agree with that.
Though, as has been said, while they aren't here specifically to gather Troll, Elf, or other souls, I doubt they'd be against gathering up any others as they provide themselves up to be "gathered".
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Post by charlzheimer on Nov 16, 2019 12:05:08 GMT
regarding toruk. according the riot quest lore bit that was dropped they mentioned that toruk was gone. riot quest assumes the infernals win and that they would use their vast ammount of newly gained souls to take out toruk for...Well his athanc. (from the announcement stream if i recall correctly)
so i think its safe to say that toruk does feel threathened by the infernals since they are here for a motherload of human souls.
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 16, 2019 18:28:55 GMT
He'd have to see the threat as one to take steps. A few ants aren't scary, but if they are the scouts for an army ant hive...
If his Liches can present him the possibility of a danger in strong enough terms, he might realize it, but I think it would require taking down one of his fully realized children before he'd ever take it seriously. By then it might be too late.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Nov 17, 2019 0:14:34 GMT
It’d be cool the see a lesser known dragon come out of the woodwork do to realizing that they need some allies and getting a minions mini theme to represent them.... we barely know anything about zu... what if a dragon has put itself in charge there?
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 17, 2019 2:34:25 GMT
Maybe. There are only a couple dragons which have any significant interactions with humanoids, Everblight and Blighterghast.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Nov 17, 2019 3:54:48 GMT
Basically how I see zu is the “China/Southeast Asia” faction.
So their warbeasts could be Chinese dragon type creatures, rakasha, kitsune, etc.
Fluff wise it’d be interesting for there also to be some humans there. Now the culture may be very different because of isolation.
The only way they could ever get included in the main story though is perhaps them launching some sort of navel invasion
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Post by Korianneder on Nov 17, 2019 4:39:12 GMT
Basically how I see zu is the “China/Southeast Asia” faction. So their warbeasts could be Chinese dragon type creatures, rakasha, kitsune, etc. Fluff wise it’d be interesting for there also to be some humans there. Now the culture may be very different because of isolation. The only way they could ever get included in the main story though is perhaps them launching some sort of navel invasion I believe the only characters that come from Zu are the totem hunter and Balthazar Bamfist. Zu is usually described more as a jungle landscape similar to the amazon or south America more than chinese.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Nov 18, 2019 1:58:52 GMT
Is riot quest cannon, though?
Is he from Zu, or is it a joke?
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Nov 18, 2019 1:59:02 GMT
Is riot quest cannon, though?
Is he from Zu, or is it a joke?
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Nov 18, 2019 3:39:57 GMT
While creatures like Toruk or Everblight *might* be safe Toruk is dead in Riotquest. Is riot quest cannon, though? Riotquest is an alternate timeline where the Infernals won. Neomechanika is also an alternate timeline, but I am starting to wonder if they blew up Caen in the process to permanently stop the Infernals.
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 18, 2019 4:16:36 GMT
That still doesn't mean that Toruk is down in Neo-Mechanika's timeline, or any future success on the Infernals part that is not Riot Quest doesn't take him down, either.
That is one of the issues of timelines, they are possibilities until actions make them reality. In some cases, they are treated equally valid, the multiverse has already prepared a different universe for such eventualities. Or in other words, "Multiverse theory's a b****."
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Post by marxlives on Nov 19, 2019 21:30:42 GMT
I do wonder if one of the reasons Toruk doesn't feel directly threatened by the Infernals is because he is outside of the natural system of Immoren. Toruk is old, like so old he doesn't even remember his own origins. The whole reason he split his althanc is because he didn't know his own potential. And in early lore Toruk was an asteroid that impacted Immoren when the planet was still cooling. Even the Chimera in IKRPG is the dragon who flew into the elves god gate and exploded it. Even that explosion didn't destroy the althanc (though it did jack up the dragon's mind). And dragon's are also soulless. I am sure an Infernal can take an althanc through the gates but I don't know if it would be useful. It would be like taking a really smart chair over. They really can't do anything to it, and dragons are alien outsiders. This is why one of Toruk's titles is God of the Caen. Basically God of the Material World. Yeah, Toruk probably cares as much about the Infernals as a farmer would a wasp colony setting up on the far side of his fields and just within flight range of some of his bees. The Iron Liches will be concerned because of them farming from the same resources they are using to track down the kids and possibly get in the way of their operations to get them out of hiding. Any actual concern by Toruk for himself would come from that.
Is there actual reference that dragon's don't have souls? Honestly, I would assume that if they did it would be as alien as Toruk is and completely residing within the athanc. Heck, for all I know the athanc is a solidified dragon soul.
Either way, athancs have a lot of power, just from the affects of the blight, and can reconstruct a dragon without any additional resources aside from time. That involves infinite energy reserves, for all intents and purposes. Considerably more than a human soul may provide. And all it would take is the naturally arrogant dragon to let themselves be experimented on by the Infernalists to make it a very bad day for all of them.
I wouldn't compare an athanc to a chair, it's more like a highly energetic isotope that can grow in to a Greater Daemon of Nurgle combined with a Hive Tyrant given the slightest opportunity. It's a very dangerous object that carries a lot of energy inside it, if you can access it.
Questions: How does Circle's Devourer Wurm relate in the lore to the Dragons (Toruk or Everblight)? All this talk about Toruk was very interesting, keep it coming! Lore related question: If Infernals are after human souls, are there any humans in Hordes? Alten Ashley and some other minions? Skorne are kind of elf-like, right? Circle's Druids - more elves? Infernals do not care about their souls, or actually anything with a "in-game defined soul" is good for an Infernal? Think there could ever be a Skorne and Circle mixup? Mordikaar and the Wurm have some "history". Their construct powers would be an amazing theme force - construct beasts and Stones in Skorne? Immortals and AGs in Circle? Seems like constructs are a good way to stop soul-hunting things! . . . unless we're burned by Skornergy again where our constructs finally get souls, and now are not immune from Infernals :-P Tharn are technically human, though, I don't think most of the Iron Kingdoms would agree with that.
Though, as has been said, while they aren't here specifically to gather Troll, Elf, or other souls, I doubt they'd be against gathering up any others as they provide themselves up to be "gathered".
The chair reference is just because they are about as soulless as a chair. Some of the earlier lit. talks about how dragon's don't register as having souls (and I think even the novel of the Cryx dragon hunter guy mentions it). You can only find them by their blight, the scars they leave on Caen. And their blight is like 1950s giant ant radiation, so the true form of a dragon is the althanc. It is more like having a big chunk of a crystalline heavy metal that exudes Marvel gamma radiation (blight), the kind that makes you big and doesn't give you horrific cancer. Its also the reason why dragon spawn are soulless. If dragons had souls, even the big soup bowls of flesh Everyblight's followers use would spawn creatures with souls. Even the dead can't be animated as soulless. This is why most people who try to approach a dragon die along the way. They don't really make it to the main show. Part of the reason (and I think this is in the old Monnom and League Scars of Caen) they leave soul scars on Dhunia is because they are not natural to planet. It is not energetic soul energy. There are plenty of creatures that have a lot of soul energy, Devourer avatars, the Defiers. The dragons just don't belong there. The dragon form you see in the media is not their real form. It is the best predator form for the planet that they are on (which is funny and explains why dragons are so present throughout other fantasy verses, kinda of meta, IKRPG material mentions this too). When they are stripped of their body it takes them a LONG time to reform it and they are most vulnerable during this state to other dragons. This is why most dragons flee (even Toruk) when they get minor injuries. The threat of absorption is too great. And during Metamorphisis, Everblight's whole althanc is in Thagrosh, and its division and the idea that he will reside in a divided state happens after. He could have just had Thagrosh find a sweet spot to chill, accumulate matter and reform himself over four centuries. Chimera and the resulting Stormlands, Abyss, and near destruction of Ios proves you can't really even destroy an althanc and even questions if dragons can even enter the spiritual realm. Dragons have a lot of knowledge and if a human could walk into Urcaen like in the Strangelight Anthology, dragons could figure it out too, they just know it is not a good idea. The Infernals are more a threat to the followers of Toruk because even Iron Liches have souls, and Infernals on Caen don't need a contract to take them, only proximity. Whether it is the undead or living in the Nightmare Empire, they all got souls and most are human. As formless creatures who are more just expressions of pure will who reside in the spirit realm of outer space and inner space (the void between planets and atoms) Infernals don't really care about the physical body of a human. They are only concerned with the human souls offered by the Claiming; living body, dead body, construct body doesn't matter.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Nov 19, 2019 22:00:24 GMT
In one of the dev chats, they brought up that someone had a theory that dragons are alien terraforming engines that turn where ever they are into an environment habitable for whatever created and sent them. The devs did not deny this.
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