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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 29, 2019 17:09:50 GMT
I played two games last night, both against cygnar in heavy metal. The lists are below to the best of my memory:
Siege
-Squire
-Triumph
-Charger
Jr
-Firefly
Caine0
-Ace
Stormstrider x2
Alexia and risen
eHaley
-Squire
-Thorn
-Stormclad
-centurion
jr
-charger
Caine0
-Thunderhead
Arlan
Stormstrider
Hermit
Alexia and risen
The lists i played are below:
Jaga WWFF
-Soul slave
-Swamp horror x2
-Bull snapper x2
Mire
-Wrastler
Cylena and nyss hunters
Boomie2
Void Archon x2
full bone grinders
Croc witch doc
Maelok
-Soul Slave
-Blindwalker
-Wraster
-Bull Snapper
Full GMP x2
Full croaks x2
croc witch doc
crawtooth
Primal Archon
Jaga faced off against Siege and got completely shot off the table. I don't think I even managed to kill anything. Maelok faced off vs eHaley and did well until I forgot about the threat extension of temporal acceleration and TK. Those two and a spirit door-ing Thunderhead wiped out all of the croaks due to bad placement on my end. I was able to grind out for a while (we played invasion) and actually managed to secure the left side of the field, but bad positioning and +4" of threat bit me again and the centurion got onto Maelok and killed him.
So my question is this: what can minions do against dedicated, high quality shooting? I've got both gators and pigs so my options are completely open for model selection.
P.S. The jaga list has already been deleted and won't hit the table again, but the Maelok one has promise, once I learn to pilot it better.
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Post by michael on Oct 29, 2019 19:27:13 GMT
When you said “gate crasher Thunderhead”, do you mean that Caine0 used Spirit Door to move Thunderhead into a position where it could fry your dudes?
If so: that absolutely does not work. Spirit Door has restrictions.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 29, 2019 19:59:39 GMT
When you said “gate crasher Thunderhead”, do you mean that Caine0 used Spirit Door to move Thunderhead into a position where it could fry your dudes? If so: that absolutely does not work. Spirit Door has restrictions. Not quite, Thunderhead moved up into a position (usually assisted by a TK and temporal acceleration), pulsed (with fire for effect up, big tidbit I missed in my description) and fried everything within 6" with a double boosted pow 12. Then Caine0 did his spirit door to poof Thunderhead back to safety. Clarified that statement in the OP. |
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Post by Azahul on Oct 30, 2019 0:15:56 GMT
I've traditionally always dropped Arkadius into Cygnar. He's fast enough that he doesn't have to weather their shooting for long (if he gets the first turn your opponent may not even get an opportunity to shoot you before you're in melee) and, as a nice bonus, his Feat effectively by-passes Haley2's by causing it to expire without doing anything. Near army-wide Hyper Aggressive and a few Enlivens from Kwaak can also allow you to reposition your models in response to shooting, tying some guns up in melee or just backing up out of range of following shots if necessary.
Against Gravediggers I might lean towards other lists, but Arkadius would definitely be my go-to for Heavy Metal.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 30, 2019 18:46:43 GMT
I've traditionally always dropped Arkadius into Cygnar. He's fast enough that he doesn't have to weather their shooting for long (if he gets the first turn your opponent may not even get an opportunity to shoot you before you're in melee) and, as a nice bonus, his Feat effectively by-passes Haley2's by causing it to expire without doing anything. Near army-wide Hyper Aggressive and a few Enlivens from Kwaak can also allow you to reposition your models in response to shooting, tying some guns up in melee or just backing up out of range of following shots if necessary. Against Gravediggers I might lean towards other lists, but Arkadius would definitely be my go-to for Heavy Metal. I have yet to actually get Arkadius on the table yet, going to have to rectify that soon. I've played against his Siege list one other time, but I used a janky eAby triple ravagore list and return fire was actually the MVP of the game. Def 10 stormstriders don't like getting shot back. |
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134 
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Post by bacon on Oct 31, 2019 0:22:33 GMT
This might sound like a stupid question but I'm surprised it wasnt mentioned yet: have you tried Rask? His feat is good at reducing incoming fire for a critical turn as long as you are aware of how far your opponent's units can move.
Otherwise as mentioned Arkadius'speed is a problem for gun lines. Also Sturm and Drang have some resistance to shooting due to Decel and a fair number of shield guards. Lastly Carver can kind of do it with a generally fast moving army, clouds from husks and gobbers, and heavies sitting at arm 21. Not unkillable by any means but it gives you options on the table.
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Post by Dirhavel on Oct 31, 2019 10:33:55 GMT
Yeah, minions in general don't have great defensive stats, so gunlines can hurt if you don't bring tools to mitigate that. As mentionned previously, casters like Rask, Arkadius, Sturm & Drang and Carver can help there. We also have a great shield guard unit in the Valkyries. Just putting a unit or two in your WWFF lists can often help delivery quite a bit. We also have decent cloud access through the Bellows crew, Mire and Gatorman Husks mostly. Then there is Wrong Eye & Snapjaw, which give you a great unshootable package for 17pts.
We do have decent tools against guns, but you kinda have to consider it all at list building.
As a sidenote, I wouldn't discard your Jaga-Jaga list entirely yet. The basis is solid, but I would do some changes. Something like put the Wrastler on Jaga, remove Mire, the Bull Snappers, the bone grinders and witch doctor and replace them with two units of Valkyries and Boomhowler2 if you have him (Nyss Hunters are a lot better with Reposition!). I still wouldn't want to drop that into a gunline, but the valkyries should help there at least...
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 31, 2019 11:31:26 GMT
This might sound like a stupid question but I'm surprised it wasnt mentioned yet: have you tried Rask? His feat is good at reducing incoming fire for a critical turn as long as you are aware of how far your opponent's units can move. Otherwise as mentioned Arkadius'speed is a problem for gun lines. Also Sturm and Drang have some resistance to shooting due to Decel and a fair number of shield guards. Lastly Carver can kind of do it with a generally fast moving army, clouds from husks and gobbers, and heavies sitting at arm 21. Not unkillable by any means but it gives you options on the table. I do have Rask and he just barely didn't make the cut when I was deciding what lists to bring. I've been re-evaluating his lists now that the archons are out and came up with a couple that might work well. |
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 31, 2019 11:40:24 GMT
Yeah, minions in general don't have great defensive stats, so gunlines can hurt if you don't bring tools to mitigate that. As mentionned previously, casters like Rask, Arkadius, Sturm & Drang and Carver can help there. We also have a great shield guard unit in the Valkyries. Just putting a unit or two in your WWFF lists can often help delivery quite a bit. We also have decent cloud access through the Bellows crew, Mire and Gatorman Husks mostly. Then there is Wrong Eye & Snapjaw, which give you a great unshootable package for 17pts. We do have decent tools against guns, but you kinda have to consider it all at list building. As a sidenote, I wouldn't discard your Jaga-Jaga list entirely yet. The basis is solid, but I would do some changes. Something like put the Wrastler on Jaga, remove Mire, the Bull Snappers, the bone grinders and witch doctor and replace them with two units of Valkyries and Boomhowler2 if you have him (Nyss Hunters are a lot better with Reposition!). I still wouldn't want to drop that into a gunline, but the valkyries should help there at least... I actually had Boomie2 in my jaga list, but forgot to list in it the write up. He didn't actually get a chance to use repo 3 on the hunters since they faced off against a stormstrider and their shots were kinda useless and the repo wouldn't have kept them out of the striders 19" threat range. The bone grinders are great feat-sac targets, give them ghost walk and run them into position for a sweet pow 14 with S&P. Unfortunately I badly miss-positioned Mire and had to surround him the bone grinders so Mire wouldn't get e-leaped to death. I'm not sure Mire really helped anything in that list other than building a small cloud wall, which is less relevant now that there is an objective that gives out eyeless sight. (My inner Legion player is sooooo pissed at that new objective.) The jaga list was cobbled together from a previous jaga list with the changes of trying to work in the void archons, cause they seem really fun with gravewind and S&P. I do have one unit of valks, partially painted, the bull snappers were there as transfer/battlehost procs/SG for jaga, two was probably overkill. Overall I guess I just need to always bring a list that can deal with dedicated high quality shooting in my pairing when I want to run minions. I'm not a purist so I don't mind running a croc list and a pig list as a pairing. |
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Post by Azahul on Nov 4, 2019 3:14:46 GMT
I'm honestly really interested to see how Rask evolves post-Archons. He's certainly got the tools to make them do some sterling work, but as a pig purist(? Does this still count when I have lists like Sturm and Drang that only have the minimum number of pigs possible in the list?) I just have to sit around and wait to see what the meta throws up. I'm with you on the Observatory objective. My poor Dracodile now has to worry about Tridents just sitting next to the objective all game  Not the end of the world (especially since I can TK Battle Engines if I have to...) but it's a bit annoying. For purely selfish reasons I wish it gave out True Sight instead... That said I do appreciate being able to finally get Mist Speakers out of my pairing. |
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Post by Dirhavel on Nov 4, 2019 11:56:08 GMT
I'm honestly really interested to see how Rask evolves post-Archons. He's certainly got the tools to make them do some sterling work, but as a pig purist(? Does this still count when I have lists like Sturm and Drang that only have the minimum number of pigs possible in the list?) I just have to sit around and wait to see what the meta throws up. I've been loving the Void Archons with Rask so far. I mean, Rask is good with everything really, but the combination of Boundless charge, Elasticity, Rask's feat, Veil of mists and reposition from Boomy2 means you pretty much always have at least two good turns of work out of the voids before they bite the dust. And with Fury they can threaten heavies pretty well. Not one-round them alone mind you, but there were a couple instances where I could charge the lead heavy, take about half his health in two melee attacks and then spray some infantry to teleport out of the way and repo up to 13" away from that heavy. That's pretty good! In one particular game, my two voids combined to take out most of a crucible guard infantry unit, a full assault troopers unit, one dragon's breath rocket and half a Toro, and one of them was still alive at the end, ready to hit Baldwin with a fully boosted spray. Granted, Rask into CG is usually a decent matchup, but it still showed me that Void archons can be pure insanity when left unchecked. |
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Post by apoc2148 on Nov 5, 2019 12:33:56 GMT
I'm honestly really interested to see how Rask evolves post-Archons. He's certainly got the tools to make them do some sterling work, but as a pig purist(? Does this still count when I have lists like Sturm and Drang that only have the minimum number of pigs possible in the list?) I just have to sit around and wait to see what the meta throws up. I've been loving the Void Archons with Rask so far. I mean, Rask is good with everything really, but the combination of Boundless charge, Elasticity, Rask's feat, Veil of mists and reposition from Boomy2 means you pretty much always have at least two good turns of work out of the voids before they bite the dust. And with Fury they can threaten heavies pretty well. Not one-round them alone mind you, but there were a couple instances where I could charge the lead heavy, take about half his health in two melee attacks and then spray some infantry to teleport out of the way and repo up to 13" away from that heavy. That's pretty good! In one particular game, my two voids combined to take out most of a crucible guard infantry unit, a full assault troopers unit, one dragon's breath rocket and half a Toro, and one of them was still alive at the end, ready to hit Baldwin with a fully boosted spray. Granted, Rask into CG is usually a decent matchup, but it still showed me that Void archons can be pure insanity when left unchecked. I really like the look and abilities of the void archon and when they finally go back in stock I'm going to pick up two immediately. I can also use them in ret and there are some fun synergies there I want to explore. I haven't played Rask much in my local meta mainly due to him stomping over people too hard for a while. Now (several years after we started playing) most of the people are bringing top tier list so it looks like it might be time to break him back out. Time for the reunion tour of Rask & Superfriends with special guests the Void Archons!  |
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Not the end of the world (especially since I can TK Battle Engines if I have to...) but it's a bit annoying. For purely selfish reasons I wish it gave out True Sight instead...