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Post by irateironfang on Oct 11, 2019 14:28:59 GMT
Hello my fellow Khadorians, I hope you're prepared for the winter and that your games have not become a proverbial gulag!
I just wanted to introduce myself here in the Khardor Forum. I play in the USA and I'm lucky enough to have a fairly active local meta. I started just last year around the same time and things have gone well considering my only other experience was a little bit of "that other game."
My collection is slowly growing but due to cost start up at the beginning I went with what I think was the 2017 army box with the LEGOS. In attempt, to not break my wallet I have stubbornly stuck to it and I have found a soft spot for the pikemen. So much, so that I did the brass rod spear conversion on thirty pokey boys.
I read the thread before about where the CID has left them post CID. I have gone through a lot of the usual casters Irusk1&2, and Strakov2? I do okay considering it is an all melee army. I will say sometimes in my meta its just a bad match up from the start in some games. (Lots of Cryx themes with a lot of range) Short of them messing with the theme again, not likely to happen, what tips or general advice do you have about playing LEGOS.
I always try to keep the pokey boys in a dragoontooth (3 man Triangle) formation and use proper screening. Short of using the Irusk with tactician to promote silly countercharge vectors is there really any thing in this theme that could help swing things other than better moves than my opponent?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 11, 2019 16:38:17 GMT
Hello, welcome to the forums!
I'm afraid I don't have any advice for you, but if you're being out-ranged I wonder if Strak1 might help?
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Post by auraco on Oct 12, 2019 10:27:40 GMT
Not really sure what advice to give, legion of steel is very one dimensional and doesn’t have many fancy tools to get around other people’s trick. I like having at least one unit of ulhans for the extra threat range and durability against stuff like fire or corrosion. My best results with the theme have been with Strakhov2, who can do pretty good scenario push thanks to quicken and his feat. Haven’t played the theme since they lost advance move, so it might not work as well as before...
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Post by borderprince on Oct 12, 2019 15:18:45 GMT
I've not tried this, but I suppose one possibility to point out now is that with the revisions to themes you can afford to run more jacks and fewer pikemen. Those could be shooting jacks to render the theme a bit less one-dimensional. Auraco's also right about the Uhlans, they can make a big difference.
Otherwise, some caster possibilities if you're finding the usual staples aren't doing that well. Changing caster is usually the cheapest way to change a list dramatically too.
Old Witch1 - slightly odd choice, but Legion of Steel hits pretty hard (especially with Ragman added in). Old Witch1 provides you with a good set of anti-infantry abilities to complement, as well as Iron Flesh, pathfinder and a pseudo-threat extender via Gallows (and her battlegroup is a bit faster than usual too, so can keep up more easily with the pikemen). There's an interesting discussion of her on the Avatar of Slaughter blog (link here).
Kozlov - in some senses like Irusk1, but you can give 2 units a turn repo 3" via Tactical Supremacy, so you can move further forward in shield wall. His feat is nice - 13" charge threat on pikemen is very good.
Zerkova1 - the clouds she can provide can help against shooting/charge if those are out-threating you, as can her feat. Like OW1, she likes units that hit hard, like Legion of Steel.
Sorscha1 - Sorscha1 likes fairly independent units, as she doesn't do that much for them directly. But Fog of War is very handy against shooting and her feat can be used in a variety of ways. Unlike the other suggestions, and the typical Legion of Steel casters, she's a good assassination caster on her own, which always gives you a path to win.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Oct 12, 2019 23:19:15 GMT
My best advise is to buy Harlowe Holdemhigh and field him as your merc choice. That way you have something other than guidance that can deal with incorp in your lest. Good shooting to boot.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 13, 2019 4:19:53 GMT
Harlowe looks like a fun model.
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Post by irateironfang on Oct 14, 2019 12:16:18 GMT
Thanks for ya'lls input on the Legion of Steel theme right now. I fee like I'll eventually get around to most of the permutations. Just wanted to pick the Kommandant/GreyLord Think Tank here. - auraco Have you found more success with a min or max unit of Uhlans?
- borderprince I haven't played the witch yet but that sounds interesting having an arc node with scrapjack will at least spice things up!
- sorokin That would be some nice shooting for just one model, and here I thought Kell Balioch was a deal
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 14, 2019 12:54:44 GMT
I would say min or max ulhans depends on caster, though generally max is best. Strakhov2 for example wants a max unit due to his upkeeps.
Old Witch1 is very solid! She also likes the greylord adjunct, who helps Legion of Steel deal with difficult models.
Harlowe seems so good with Legion of Steel! Removing incorporeal is a massive boost for the list.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 14, 2019 13:16:54 GMT
I, too, have a soft spot for the Pikemen... thoroughly sick of brass rodding, though!
Legion of Steel gets a short shrift on the forums, but the main thing about any game is that you have fun. It's also worth noting that pilot skill counts for a lot, so keep practicing and you will get better with the theme.
That said, a lot of what you'll get better at is picking out what sort of things will cause you problems and how best to deal with them using the tools at hand. The issue that a lot of people find is that Legion's tools are simply different flavours of bombs on sticks, and that they are a single wound melee theme in a world of infantry-mulching things. High power sprays, berzerk, thresher, things like covering fire...
All is not lost, however! It just means you need to look beyond the Iron Fangs themselves; Warjacks, Mercenaries, and your caster can all play a significant role. The theme itself just kind of does its own thing; you have accurate, hard hitting guys with good threat ranges, and a fair amount of native pathfinder. (Their armour is quite good too, but we live in a time where ARM is basically irrelevant on SWI.) If you can buff any of those attributes, that's gravy, but you don't really have to.
This self-sufficiency means you can run them with a lot of casters. Sorscha1 does little for troops under her command, and whilst she is hell for your opponents infantry she struggles to personally help much with warjacks and beasts. However, Precision Strike combines well with Stationary and KD: You can scalpel out a cortex or spirit with trivial ease. It will only take ~10 damage to completely neutralise a heavy for a turn. That trick is less effective against Battle Engines and Colossals, but we're Khador. Throw Marauders at it.
Zerkova1 has no damage buffs or threat range extenders, but her feat and her cloud wall can make her personally a nightmare for some armies. Back that up with hard-hitting self-sufficient infantry and you could be getting somewhere.
Vlad3 is much maligned, but Dash Uhlans can be halfway up the board turn 1, and you are more likely to go first because of the theme benefits. That's some significant scenario pressure just waiting to happen.
Strakhov1 gives IFP a threat range of 15", plus a 5" reposition into Shield Wall.
And so on and so forth! Don't be afraid to try some of the more left-field casters.
With regards to mercs, it's kind of up to you. I really like Ragman to give you that little extra punch, but there's a lot of good options for Merc solos. The theme now has access to character mercs, and that's something I've not really explored. But Alexia1 loves having infantry around to feed off, and there's some nice shooting options to be had.
You get quite a lot of flex from the jacks, too. Our colossals are pretty good shots, and the Destroyer is a very handy gun if you need more range. Marauders are great into all the big stuff, Kodiaks are great into units, Juggernauts are pain incarnate. You can use their various attributes to cover weaknesses a little, or you can double down on melee... depends on the caster, really.
Main point of flexibility is certainly the caster though.
General tips: recognise when the dragontooth is a poor choice. If you're facing things with Berzerk, or Chain Weapon, or high power sprays, or corrosion... all you're doing is giving them extra targets.
Get used to positioning for the countercharges. It's a great theme benefit.
Uhlans are great, if only because they don't die quite so easily. If you can get a damage boost on them they hit 'kill a huge base' territory.
Use your guys like a scalpel, and attack in waves. If you've got a unit of 12 Iron Fangs, the best play is sometimes to send 4-5 of them to mess something up and hang the rest back. Even if you lose all 5 the rest of them can be almost a foot back from the front lines and still be in unit coherence ready to charge next turn. (Thanks to +2 CMD from the Standard bearer). This can really help minimise losses.
Defensive Formation is an incredible minifeat. It allows you to run and be in shield wall, which is handy, but the 5" reposition gives them great mobility. If you can charge and pop feat you can end up engaging things from 16" away. You can use it to tie up shooting units, or just put a lot of scenario pressure on your opponents.
At the end of the day, it's all about practice and finding what you're comfortable with. But if your main problem is Cryx, Sorscha1 is well worth a look.
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Post by irateironfang on Oct 14, 2019 14:13:10 GMT
Hey @ hocestbellum I have watched in horror as models with overtake & berserk have mulched a unit of IFP. So I understand, what you mean by the dragon tooth isn't always the best option. There is a formation that is best used depending on the board state and what you imagine your opponent will do or play next. That will require just straight up board time (practice). Your post was a very concise and I feel I may need to read it several more times to actually absorb it all. However I'll ask do you find that sometimes you just have to minimize the trade a lot more often and use wide spacing with IFP and use the waves more often than that dragon tooth. I know this is kinda wargaming 101 reduce your causalities for the next turn. However, I internally always have a hard time not putting things B2B to get that sweet sweet B2B Arm 18 instead of the plz kill me ARM 14.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 14, 2019 14:43:48 GMT
Yeah, you need to recognise when ARM18 is worth having, because a lot of the time even ARM18 on a single wounder is still 'plz kill me'. I've generally found that it's not if you are going to take a charge or some high pow shooting (P13+). But if you've tied something up, or the shooting is low powered, then it might work. Even with the 'tie things up' you need to be talking about something P12 or lower most of the time.
However, if you can get some defensive buffs on them, then it's a whole different ballgame. Inviolable Resolve and Mission Critical? You bet you get them in Shield Wall. ARM 23 tough is a nightmare compared to ARM 19 tough. That said, it's tricky to get to the 21+ where you start really getting off the bell curve.
Spreading out helps protect from a wide range of PITA stuff. I find Shield Wall is mostly useful for stuff like blasts/electro leaps/P10 shooting.
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Post by borderprince on Oct 15, 2019 14:14:20 GMT
Worth adding that if ARM isn't helping you, try mixing that ARM with improved DEF. IFP are depressingly easy to hit.
But Zerkova1 can help keep critical models alive in melee if you position her clouds right. The -2 to attack rolls shifts IFP to just that position where lots of models are on around 50/50 chances to hit at all, which can make a big difference. Sorscha1 can do the same against shooting with concealment. Better DEF vs ranged then makes the ARM18 more significant because opponents start to rely more on abilities like blasts and electro-leap.
It's not reaching untouchable DEF territory, but reductions in casualties are always welcome.
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Post by auraco on Oct 15, 2019 15:02:24 GMT
Yeah going from needing 5 to hit to needing 7 to hit can make a big difference at the end of the day.
Still pikemen are squishy, there is no denying it, it's why I like the ulhans, they are sturdy enough to actually take some hit, even when they just charged because they aren't reliant on the shield wall order to do their thing and with Reposition it's easy to put them in base contact after a charge.
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Post by Havock on Oct 15, 2019 21:01:10 GMT
Pikemen have total victim stats; the drop in DEF hurt them pretty badly; even models with mediocre combat stats will hit them on average -and flatten them with direct hits-.
Strakhov2 can push them just high enough that normal shooting will bounce off, other than that it's tough, clouds and positioning that will keep them alive.
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Post by irateironfang on Oct 23, 2019 13:44:39 GMT
TO MY KHADORIAN COMRADES MANY THANKS!
I appreciate the warm welcome. I was not expecting such an in depth conversation on a theme that is not exactly top tier at the moment. I'm aware it is used in some tournaments on occasion.
This thread has at least given me some insight on how they can really be taken in certain situations and what to really aim to improve upon for the theme!
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