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Post by Charistoph on Oct 5, 2019 6:39:38 GMT
A cool idea, but it can easily clash with the lore. Jacks are a lot more interchangable than beasts. I don't think non-blighted trolls serving factions other than TB is a good idea, it would erode their faction identity. Considering PP made a slight resculpt of Skarath for WW, there really is no excuse for the fact minions can't run generic tatzyls.
Not necessarily. From what I understand, cortices have a magical imprint one needs to sync with in order to work with it. These get defined by the manufacturers, to work for their customers (usually the nation in question). That's why one cannot just overpower a Warcaster and take over other nation's 'Jacks at will.
From that point, a lot depends on if the 'Beast in question can be imprinted properly to gain Fury from them. We see a Rhulic-man doing it with a Bear, and the afore-referenced Iosan with the wurm.
As for the Troll, that's why it would specifically noted as enslaved, beaten down to be under the will of the Warlock, something that Skorne nation are well known for doing, so it wouldn't take a genius to consider modifying that aspect of it for others, and remember that the Circle had connections with Trolls through the Trollbloods for quite some time as well, so the possibility exists for them to run from there.
Did the Protectorate have jacks back then? Or rather, was there even a Protectorate back then? Fluff-wise I think the Protectorate as a whole is not very old, not very rich, and they are not particularly technologically advanced, so I don't see them having iterated their warjack design very much in order to have old ones that aren't worth keeping around anymore. Did they even ever build their own labourjacks? Or have they only ever built warjacks disguised as labourjacks? Khador have had warjacks for ages but cortexes are so expensive that they would rather keep working them until they explode than sell them. Cygnar is the "west" of the Iron Kingdoms, buying new iphones and selling the old ones every time a new model comes out. Everyone else uses uses their phones until they break so they never have old phones lying around to sell. It's probably like how in some countries labour is cheap enough to justify spending many man-hours repairing things, in others labour is too expensive so it's cheaper to throw stuff away and buy new ones. Like how in some countries you see loads of really old cars driving around, in others you don't. Cryx is basically running on free slave labour and will happily take any old junk they can find and build necrothralls or whatever from them, so why sell anything? Re-duce re-use re-animate, right?
Good points, for the most part. Moving on from that, would such a concept be interesting enough in list building to bother working in to the fluff, or would there not be any interest in it to bother worrying about trying to do it?
We already see it with a certain Lesser getting access to a Troll, though, I don't know how common that one is taken. To be fair gatorman, bogtrog, and croak warlocks bond with beasts based on their shared connection to the swamp. By the lore all blindwater locks should be able to control a swamp troll.
Yes, and no. I think that the Swamp Troll is not immediately in there is because of how much of a Troll it is, and most of the Trollblood links are more about blood than anything else, which is why it would take significant effort in order to go beyond that. Apparently that Lesser Warlock did do that somehow.
Anyway, this was more about the precedence that it could provide, more than anything specific.
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Post by borderprince on Oct 6, 2019 4:56:32 GMT
Not necessarily. From what I understand, cortices have a magical imprint one needs to sync with in order to work with it. These get defined by the manufacturers, to work for their customers (usually the nation in question). That's why one cannot just overpower a Warcaster and take over other nation's 'Jacks at will.
Did the Protectorate have jacks back then? Or rather, was there even a Protectorate back then? Fluff-wise I think the Protectorate as a whole is not very old, not very rich, and they are not particularly technologically advanced, so I don't see them having iterated their warjack design very much in order to have old ones that aren't worth keeping around anymore. Did they even ever build their own labourjacks? Or have they only ever built warjacks disguised as labourjacks? Khador have had warjacks for ages but cortexes are so expensive that they would rather keep working them until they explode than sell them. Cygnar is the "west" of the Iron Kingdoms, buying new iphones and selling the old ones every time a new model comes out. Everyone else uses uses their phones until they break so they never have old phones lying around to sell. It's probably like how in some countries labour is cheap enough to justify spending many man-hours repairing things, in others labour is too expensive so it's cheaper to throw stuff away and buy new ones. Like how in some countries you see loads of really old cars driving around, in others you don't. Cryx is basically running on free slave labour and will happily take any old junk they can find and build necrothralls or whatever from them, so why sell anything? Re-duce re-use re-animate, right?
Good points, for the most part. Moving on from that, would such a concept be interesting enough in list building to bother working in to the fluff, or would there not be any interest in it to bother worrying about trying to do it?
Not quite on the imprint point - jacks apparently have 'Cortex-locks', which are special codes which need to be entered for a caster to be able to interface with the cortex and use that jack. Very rare casters (aka Haley-Sue) can overcome these, but only those.
As for keeping the jacks running - most nations seem to do so. If you look at the Mk2 forces books, most factions have jack chassis which have been in service for decades. As the background moves on, those could be retired, just as the Ironclad chassis replaced the Nomad one for Cygnar. However, even that probably wouldn't be enough. Khador and the Protectorate have nationalised jack production and all jacks are state assets. They seem unlikely to sell their used jacks on (and both factions are less keen on mercenaries too). Cygnar might do so, but we know that new merc jacks are also being manufactured using the old designs (the Rover, based on the Nomad). Cygnar buys at least some of its jacks from the private sector, so their designs might circulate in a way the designs for Khadoran or Menite jacks would not.
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Post by kjata on Oct 6, 2019 5:04:43 GMT
While the protectorate and Khadr nationalized jacks, nations sell weapons to each other, and the private sector. It's probably just a lot easier and cheaper to get old cygnar crap, especially considering that the old cygnar crap compares pretty well to current protectorate stuff, and also compares pretty well to old Khadr stuff based on the fluff (with Khadr having pretty bad cortexes).
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 6, 2019 5:37:14 GMT
As for keeping the jacks running - most nations seem to do so. If you look at the Mk2 forces books, most factions have jack chassis which have been in service for decades. As the background moves on, those could be retired, just as the Ironclad chassis replaced the Nomad one for Cygnar. However, even that probably wouldn't be enough. Khador and the Protectorate have nationalised jack production and all jacks are state assets. They seem unlikely to sell their used jacks on (and both factions are less keen on mercenaries too). Cygnar might do so, but we know that new merc jacks are also being manufactured using the old designs (the Rover, based on the Nomad). Cygnar buys at least some of its jacks from the private sector, so their designs might circulate in a way the designs for Khadoran or Menite jacks would not.
It's called the scrapyard. Either their reclamation process is nationalized and incredibly uncorrupted, or its not. Considering how corrupted many of the reclamation processes for military equipment in our own world are incredibly corrupt (Russia has gotten a few things from America this way, actually), I would consider it the latter. But that would be just for the bodies and the weapon systems, as the cortices would need to be unlocked or replaced in order for the Mercs to use them.
But again, fluff can be adjusted to account for the fact, but would you be interested in the effects and results of it happening?
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Oct 6, 2019 6:02:10 GMT
I’d like to see epic character warjacks before we see more generic ones.
Would a 26 point thunderhead with even better stats and abilities be interesting? I’d play one.
Also, it be cool to get a pseudo resculpt for the old character jaxks
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 6, 2019 6:25:20 GMT
I made a post and it got deleted. Ree.
I think cygnar/khador should have access to BG mercs without FF.
no 26 point characters is ok imo, helps keep the heavy->colossal gap feel meaningful. Helps Behemoth pop lore and gameplay wise.
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 7, 2019 11:20:27 GMT
the protectorate has a extreme cortex shortage. they have more chassis then cortexes, on top of that the PoM greedily hoards all military assets that they DO have since they are technologically behind on other nations. hence i doubt they would SELL any of their jacks.
as for their labor jacks. the crusader warjack line are their labor jacks. they litterally just give them maces and send them to do battle.
khador his outdated models...well. explosive.
only cygnar sells their outdated jacks simply because its lucrative and because they have no shortages in cortex production or jack production. they can KEEP modernizing their assets due to their stable economy (bot commen and military)
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Post by jagius021 on Oct 7, 2019 19:56:03 GMT
Maker's Mark bourbon is flavorful and smooth and should definitely be more prevalent.
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 7, 2019 21:48:19 GMT
Second hand surplus Protectorate jacks don't make a ton of sense lorewise for a few reasons.
First is that the Protectorate has relatively small jack production while simultaneously having an expanding military. This means that they have more demand for weapons of war(jacks included) than they have supply. This means that pretty much all functioning warjacks will remain in service till they become irreparable. Hence why Crusaders are still being used despite being over a century old design.
Now even if a country isn't selling surplus military equipment through official channels, there is still always the possibility of some corrupt officials selling equipment on the side. However, the nature of the Protectorate makes this type of corruption less likely than in a normal country. It is a heavily religious military with a huge focus on fanaticism and a diminished focus on personal wealth. The main thing you can gain personally is political power, and stealing jack's wouldn't be as good for increasing your own power as turning someone in for doing that would be. Plus God is watching. IE: You're not going to siphon away military equipment for personal gain if the next priest over will gladly tell Reznik about it, and Menoth himself might take offense to you harming the Crusade for personal profit and have a Reclaimer pay you an early visit.
Basically, the only way you'd see any protectorate jacks being used by a Merc outfit is if they stole them.
Khador and Cygnar are the only countries that have the jack production and culture that would lend itself to an aftermarket of legal surplus military jacks.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Oct 8, 2019 13:18:57 GMT
Fluff-wise I think the Protectorate as a whole is not very old, not very rich, and they are not particularly technologically advanced, so I don't see them having iterated their warjack design very much in order to have old ones that aren't worth keeping around anymore. Did they even ever build their own labourjacks? Or have they only ever built warjacks disguised as labourjacks? The Protectorate has a ton of precious gems and stuff that they used to bribe people. I think they're one of the more wealthy nations, though they themselves don't really utilize the wealth internally.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 8, 2019 14:56:07 GMT
Fluff-wise I think the Protectorate as a whole is not very old, not very rich, and they are not particularly technologically advanced, so I don't see them having iterated their warjack design very much in order to have old ones that aren't worth keeping around anymore. Did they even ever build their own labourjacks? Or have they only ever built warjacks disguised as labourjacks? The Protectorate has a ton of precious gems and stuff that they used to bribe people. I think they're one of the more wealthy nations, though they themselves don't really utilize the wealth internally. Huh, I didn't know that. It makes sense. They still don't really have the infrastructure and manufacturing capacity to be producing a surplus of warjacks thus allowing them to sell off the old models do they? I mean that's my vague impression of them anyway? By the way, could there be religious issues in selling old warjacks? I think they jump through some logic hoops to justify using them in the first place, like they're all sanctified or something, so maybe they don't like the idea of selling them to non-believers?
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 8, 2019 19:05:03 GMT
Indeed. Warjacks in the Protectorate are sanctified holy machines. Both literally and metaphorically. The Protectorate has also expanded their manufacturing facilities in Inmer to an impressive level. They were able to get Colossals up and running in record time relative to how long it took Cygnar and Khador to do it. Though they certainly won't be interested in selling any of them off for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
The Protectorate's economy is the only one in the Iron Kingdoms that utilizes Fiat Currency. They make coins from clay which have an assigned value by the Protectorate and are not backed by gold or silver. Precious gems and metals are used when trading with other nations, and the protectorate has these in abundance thanks to the mines east of Inmer. Those mines also have an abundance of more mundane raw materials like iron and copper, necessary for the production of jacks. The one thing the Protectorate does lack IIRC is a large supply of coal, which is why their new acquisitions on Llael are so valuable. It gives them access to trade with Rhul and their coal deposits.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 8, 2019 19:36:17 GMT
Could you imagine if the Protectorate figured out how to purify their oil in to modern gas and convert to a reciprocating engine for their 'Jacks and battle engines?
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 9, 2019 16:00:02 GMT
I’ve wanted a gasoline jack chassis for a while. It would be a cool design space.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Oct 10, 2019 17:21:15 GMT
Realistically, the combustion engine was first made in 1876, with some earlier attempts. The first piston steam engine, which is what is used in the IK, came out in 1712, so it really isn't that far off and would fit with the flavor of the game at this point. Especially true with their ability to mix magic and technology and the relatively high ratio of people in the IK who work on those sorts of devices.
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